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by Hundmutter on 12 June 2013 - 10:06
Whimpering and whingeing IS Zeux's way of telling her
she is biting too hard / much, he is getting in ahead of
really getting nipped. Puppies in the nest 'tell' each
other when the play-biting is more than they want - it's
how the one doing the biting learns to restrict its bite.
Humans can do the same thing, teach the same lesson:
if mouthed by a pup, saying 'Ouch' even when you are
not really hurt can teach the puppy that it will damage
you if it continues.
When he really wants it to stop, if he considers she has
not learned well enough, he will nip her back and/or growl
at her. Does not mean he will eat her ! Just being a bit
harder on her looks dreadful to humans of a nervous
disposition, but don't forget their mouths are all a dog
has got, they don't have hands or language.
If he really didn't want to interact with her, you wouldn't
be able to keep him in the same room, he'd always be
removing himself from the possibility of being bounced
on.
By all means separate them (effectively) for some part of
the time just to give him a rest, but let the two of them
get it sorted out in their own time and way when they are
together. Now while she is still recognisably a puppy is
better than stringing this out by getting in the middle of it,
or you can create problems for the future.
"JMO."
Linda.
she is biting too hard / much, he is getting in ahead of
really getting nipped. Puppies in the nest 'tell' each
other when the play-biting is more than they want - it's
how the one doing the biting learns to restrict its bite.
Humans can do the same thing, teach the same lesson:
if mouthed by a pup, saying 'Ouch' even when you are
not really hurt can teach the puppy that it will damage
you if it continues.
When he really wants it to stop, if he considers she has
not learned well enough, he will nip her back and/or growl
at her. Does not mean he will eat her ! Just being a bit
harder on her looks dreadful to humans of a nervous
disposition, but don't forget their mouths are all a dog
has got, they don't have hands or language.
If he really didn't want to interact with her, you wouldn't
be able to keep him in the same room, he'd always be
removing himself from the possibility of being bounced
on.
By all means separate them (effectively) for some part of
the time just to give him a rest, but let the two of them
get it sorted out in their own time and way when they are
together. Now while she is still recognisably a puppy is
better than stringing this out by getting in the middle of it,
or you can create problems for the future.
"JMO."
Linda.
by Kimberlysm on 18 June 2013 - 17:06
First of all... Thank you for the couple of PMs I received. Lily (GSD) is doing much better with Zeux (APBT). The advice I received is working well. She still keeps at him sometimes, but they can now be in the same room and she ignores him. Before, she thought that she had to "attack" him the entire time. Let me reiterate-she is only playing with him. Not getting overly rough or aggressive. He just doesn't know how to deal with it I guess. So of course something new has cropped up.
Zeux comes into the main room with us all and goes right underneath an end table. He stays there the entire time. If Lily tries to play, he automatically starts growling and wants nothing to do with her-EVER! So, my fiance spends that time just keeping her back. It's annoying to say the least. Are we just supposed to keep them apart at all times? It doesn't seem right that there is another dog living in the same house and we constantly have to tell Lily that she has to leave him alone.
Also, if either of us push (I'm talking gently nudge, not kicking or shoving) Zeux out of our way while he is laying under the table he will growl at us. If he is in the bedroom he sometimes gets on the bed (a no-no and he knows it) and when we make him get off of the bed he growls at us. Never tries to bite, but was wondering what should be done about that. I think it's totally wrong and he needs corrected. My fiance on the other hand doesn't see what the issue is. I have never had a dog that has growled at me. So, not sure what correction should be made. I mean if he were MY dog-I know what I would do. But, not my dog so looking into getting input as to what YOU would do in the same situation. As per my other post-I hope I explained this accurately so you can follow what I'm asking.
Back to Lily... She is also doing excellent on her walks as far as ignoring other dogs. Still working on getting her to ignore the dogs that are at their fences going totally berserk when we pass. But, it's just a matter of time and I'm sure she'll do just fine with that too. I guess my main issues (questions) are what to do about Zeux and his growling and since he is NOT interested in interacting with Lily, should we just leave it alone and not push the issue? I just hate it that she wants to play and even when she is being extra good with Zeux he wants nothing to do with her. He has never really been around a lot of dogs himself and my fiance got him too young really (5 weeks old). Thank you to those of you who chose to read all of this and had to decipher my nonsense. lol
Zeux comes into the main room with us all and goes right underneath an end table. He stays there the entire time. If Lily tries to play, he automatically starts growling and wants nothing to do with her-EVER! So, my fiance spends that time just keeping her back. It's annoying to say the least. Are we just supposed to keep them apart at all times? It doesn't seem right that there is another dog living in the same house and we constantly have to tell Lily that she has to leave him alone.
Also, if either of us push (I'm talking gently nudge, not kicking or shoving) Zeux out of our way while he is laying under the table he will growl at us. If he is in the bedroom he sometimes gets on the bed (a no-no and he knows it) and when we make him get off of the bed he growls at us. Never tries to bite, but was wondering what should be done about that. I think it's totally wrong and he needs corrected. My fiance on the other hand doesn't see what the issue is. I have never had a dog that has growled at me. So, not sure what correction should be made. I mean if he were MY dog-I know what I would do. But, not my dog so looking into getting input as to what YOU would do in the same situation. As per my other post-I hope I explained this accurately so you can follow what I'm asking.
Back to Lily... She is also doing excellent on her walks as far as ignoring other dogs. Still working on getting her to ignore the dogs that are at their fences going totally berserk when we pass. But, it's just a matter of time and I'm sure she'll do just fine with that too. I guess my main issues (questions) are what to do about Zeux and his growling and since he is NOT interested in interacting with Lily, should we just leave it alone and not push the issue? I just hate it that she wants to play and even when she is being extra good with Zeux he wants nothing to do with her. He has never really been around a lot of dogs himself and my fiance got him too young really (5 weeks old). Thank you to those of you who chose to read all of this and had to decipher my nonsense. lol
by Hundmutter on 18 June 2013 - 18:06
Kimberly, I think the fact that your fiance "doesn't see what the issue is"
tends to be 80% or more why you have the problem. You really need to
have a proper discussion about the way each of you relate to both dogs,
and what you both would like from the situation - so you can try to reach
agreement on the best ways for both of you to react, coming from the
"same page". Otherwise if one of you reacts one way to something either
dog does, and the other does something different, you end up with confused
dogs, who will take advantage ! 'JMO' ; but no dog ever growls at me when
I tell him/her to get off the furniture, because the dog knows I mean it, & no
one gives an opposite alternative ...
As to 'madam' persuing Zeux when he just wants to lie under a table for some
peace, 2 suggestions: 1] I said before that it was fine to give them a break
from each other, sometimes, by having them in separate rooms or whatever,
you could try doing a little more of that. Perhaps you might use some symbol
to indicate when Xeus is going to be able to breathe 'cos she won't come in the
room for half an hour - maybe hang something ( a toy, a towel - but always the
same item ) on a door handle or something where he can see it. He'll come to
realise this means the pup isn't going to be around while that is hanging up. But
you must both be careful to use the signal properly, hang it when Lily is outside,
take it down when you let her in, EVERY time. Do you have a crate for her ?
That would really help with making sure she is safe and secure during her 'time outs'.
2 ] You could also try having her on a lead indoors, tied to your waist or
wrist, whenever the two dogs are both in the same room. That will mean you can
keep her from going too near Zeux too often; and (importantly) reward her when she
stops trying to get to him and settles quietly with you. You'd need to keep on doing
this until you are absolutely sure she has got the message; stop too soon
and she will be worse.
Both are surely better than your fiance having to be down there separating the two
of them all the time - and it may help to start to convince them both that you are
more in control of the situation (and therefore have to be minded), which, forgive me
for saying this, but it sounds as though neither of them believe at present.
tends to be 80% or more why you have the problem. You really need to
have a proper discussion about the way each of you relate to both dogs,
and what you both would like from the situation - so you can try to reach
agreement on the best ways for both of you to react, coming from the
"same page". Otherwise if one of you reacts one way to something either
dog does, and the other does something different, you end up with confused
dogs, who will take advantage ! 'JMO' ; but no dog ever growls at me when
I tell him/her to get off the furniture, because the dog knows I mean it, & no
one gives an opposite alternative ...
As to 'madam' persuing Zeux when he just wants to lie under a table for some
peace, 2 suggestions: 1] I said before that it was fine to give them a break
from each other, sometimes, by having them in separate rooms or whatever,
you could try doing a little more of that. Perhaps you might use some symbol
to indicate when Xeus is going to be able to breathe 'cos she won't come in the
room for half an hour - maybe hang something ( a toy, a towel - but always the
same item ) on a door handle or something where he can see it. He'll come to
realise this means the pup isn't going to be around while that is hanging up. But
you must both be careful to use the signal properly, hang it when Lily is outside,
take it down when you let her in, EVERY time. Do you have a crate for her ?
That would really help with making sure she is safe and secure during her 'time outs'.
2 ] You could also try having her on a lead indoors, tied to your waist or
wrist, whenever the two dogs are both in the same room. That will mean you can
keep her from going too near Zeux too often; and (importantly) reward her when she
stops trying to get to him and settles quietly with you. You'd need to keep on doing
this until you are absolutely sure she has got the message; stop too soon
and she will be worse.
Both are surely better than your fiance having to be down there separating the two
of them all the time - and it may help to start to convince them both that you are
more in control of the situation (and therefore have to be minded), which, forgive me
for saying this, but it sounds as though neither of them believe at present.
by Kimberlysm on 18 June 2013 - 22:06
"- and it may help to start to convince them both that you are
more in control of the situation (and therefore have to be minded), which, forgive me
for saying this, but it sounds as though neither of them believe at present." <--No worries, I understand what you are saying and take no issue with it.
I think I may have inadvertently made it sound like a three-ringed circus here! The dogs only "go 'round" about 2 times a day now. After Lily is told no, she usually leaves Zeux alone. It's the few times she doesn't that my fiance will keep her from Zeux. Getting much better though. I'm sure she is a little confused at times, as I will ask that things be done a certain way and my fiance will do as he wishes anyway. We are definitely working on that! I agree that we need to be on the same page. He has way different beliefs than I do when it comes to dogs. We've never had a "puppy together" ( haha, that sounds kinda funny) so it's a learning experience for sure. All other dogs I have owned were my sole responsibility so I had no issues such as this.
What do you think about this? When DB leaves the house and I am here alone with the dogs-There are zero instances of them not playing "nice" together. Have tried to understand that one myself. I am in no way bashing my fiance. Things can be taken wrong when typewritten and not spoken. And, can make a very intelligent person sound like a complete dolt! Haha!
I'm taking very serious your suggestion that the dogs aren't believing that we are the bosses... Will have to address that right away. It was so much easier with my last dog as he was an adult when my fiance and I met. SO, this is a learning experience for me.
As far as the growling, I guess I will just ignore it and let DB deal with it. Because he doesn't seem to want to listen to me when it comes to that. It is HIS dog that he had for 5 years before we met sooooo.
Thank you again for your suggestions. I want you to know I take them seriously and am willing to try. I understand this is the internet and all. But, know there are some very bright people who post here who have sound advice. I'm smart enough to weed through any advice that is bad (I think) lol.
Kimberly~
more in control of the situation (and therefore have to be minded), which, forgive me
for saying this, but it sounds as though neither of them believe at present." <--No worries, I understand what you are saying and take no issue with it.
I think I may have inadvertently made it sound like a three-ringed circus here! The dogs only "go 'round" about 2 times a day now. After Lily is told no, she usually leaves Zeux alone. It's the few times she doesn't that my fiance will keep her from Zeux. Getting much better though. I'm sure she is a little confused at times, as I will ask that things be done a certain way and my fiance will do as he wishes anyway. We are definitely working on that! I agree that we need to be on the same page. He has way different beliefs than I do when it comes to dogs. We've never had a "puppy together" ( haha, that sounds kinda funny) so it's a learning experience for sure. All other dogs I have owned were my sole responsibility so I had no issues such as this.
What do you think about this? When DB leaves the house and I am here alone with the dogs-There are zero instances of them not playing "nice" together. Have tried to understand that one myself. I am in no way bashing my fiance. Things can be taken wrong when typewritten and not spoken. And, can make a very intelligent person sound like a complete dolt! Haha!
I'm taking very serious your suggestion that the dogs aren't believing that we are the bosses... Will have to address that right away. It was so much easier with my last dog as he was an adult when my fiance and I met. SO, this is a learning experience for me.
As far as the growling, I guess I will just ignore it and let DB deal with it. Because he doesn't seem to want to listen to me when it comes to that. It is HIS dog that he had for 5 years before we met sooooo.
Thank you again for your suggestions. I want you to know I take them seriously and am willing to try. I understand this is the internet and all. But, know there are some very bright people who post here who have sound advice. I'm smart enough to weed through any advice that is bad (I think) lol.
Kimberly~
by Hundmutter on 19 June 2013 - 03:06
Just so you know, and can evaluate what I suggest: I don't often give
specific advice about training matters. Tend to only mention those methods
which have worked for me, or other people I know well, over a 40+ year period
around dogs generally and Shepherds in particular. Don't train for hundsports
or trials, although I have done some tracking and some competitive Obedience,
and I am not any sort of qualified, certificated 'Dog Trainer', I've never run my own
classes ; but I was just employed for the last 12 years to manage a kennel - and
train within it - of up to 30+ GSDs [plus one or two other breeds]. (Private
'security' dogs). And some 20 years experience with helping at my mentor's
Show kennel. Among other things.
I think you probably already know what I think about the difference when its
just you with the two dogs ! Goes to what I said about the two of you really
talking it out, re: what you expect of the dogs & how you are going to get
there. There are no magic answers in human relationships, it depends on the
pair of you and your ability to compromise, probably. Not trying to slag off
your nearest & dearest, but the fact he would take on a 5-week old pup, of an
often banned breed, would make me worry about his 'common sense' level,
unless you are going to add that he is otherwise extremely experienced around
a whole lot of dogs before Zeux.?
Glad you are getting through to Lily gradually; we are often a little impatient
with young dogs (we're probably victims of our own faster society these days
LOL), hang on in there & keep at it, but exercise as much patience as you
can manage ! I promise I won't get all huffy if you decide to disregard any
of my suggestions - as you say, this IS the Internet; and I am not there with
you to see how the four of you interact !
Linda.
specific advice about training matters. Tend to only mention those methods
which have worked for me, or other people I know well, over a 40+ year period
around dogs generally and Shepherds in particular. Don't train for hundsports
or trials, although I have done some tracking and some competitive Obedience,
and I am not any sort of qualified, certificated 'Dog Trainer', I've never run my own
classes ; but I was just employed for the last 12 years to manage a kennel - and
train within it - of up to 30+ GSDs [plus one or two other breeds]. (Private
'security' dogs). And some 20 years experience with helping at my mentor's
Show kennel. Among other things.
I think you probably already know what I think about the difference when its
just you with the two dogs ! Goes to what I said about the two of you really
talking it out, re: what you expect of the dogs & how you are going to get
there. There are no magic answers in human relationships, it depends on the
pair of you and your ability to compromise, probably. Not trying to slag off
your nearest & dearest, but the fact he would take on a 5-week old pup, of an
often banned breed, would make me worry about his 'common sense' level,
unless you are going to add that he is otherwise extremely experienced around
a whole lot of dogs before Zeux.?
Glad you are getting through to Lily gradually; we are often a little impatient
with young dogs (we're probably victims of our own faster society these days
LOL), hang on in there & keep at it, but exercise as much patience as you
can manage ! I promise I won't get all huffy if you decide to disregard any
of my suggestions - as you say, this IS the Internet; and I am not there with
you to see how the four of you interact !
Linda.
by LadyFrost on 19 June 2013 - 10:06
Kimberly....if you are open to more "trials" you may want to try putting 2 of them on 1 leash...
2 dogs in the photo before would rough play so hard that it always ended up in a "brawl" and i would be separating them....what worked for me is putting them on a 6 foot leash, that automatically makes one a follower and if one dog want to lie down the other has no choice but to follow, even though they will have enough lead to play, the actual act of being tied changes dynamics. I know it will be a pain to untangling them every so often, but it may work..it worked for my dogs...
About the "bed" you definitely need something in a living space it could be just a folded blanket or even a dog towel, and you can call it "time out" and take her to the blanket or towel, that way she is not isolated, she remains in the same space just not all over the other dog...she will learn that she is not being punished she is just being told what to do.
by Kimberlysm on 19 June 2013 - 19:06
Hundmutter (Linda)-WOW! What an extensive background with dogs. Very nice. I have "trained" all of my dogs myself with the exception of one that we had "sent away" for training. But, regardless of how much or how little experience I have, I have found that this particular situation I'm in has never had to be addressed before in my dealings with dogs. That's why I find myself asking for tips here. I think one can be the very best at something, but still has to keep their mind open to the fact that unknown scenarios are always a possibility. And for those things one needs to look into different options. Anyway...
Yes, Zeux was given to my DB at 5 wks of age. Much too young to be away from mom or littermates. But, the dog was basically dropped off at his house, so it wasn't really his choice that the puppy was taken away from the litter so early. He had only owned APBTs prior to that, so had experience and was familiar with the breed before he got the 5 week old pup.
An issue he and I go around and around with, is that I think he anthropomorphizes the dogs. Gets under my skin! He knows I take issue with this. Also, he is reading this over my shoulder. lol We are working towards compromises as far as the dogs. I think, like you correctly assumed-that a majority of our dog issues start with us!
Sorry, kind of off topic. But, I think the background helps to see what I'm/we're dealing with as far as dog issues, right? As to what you said about "Patience".... Luckily, I have an abundance of patience, so no worries there. It seems as if each day goes smoother as far as Lily-Zeux interactions. YAY! To that!
LadyFrost- Yes, I think Lily being in the same room while in time out will be a good idea! Because when she is alone in the other room and then comes back out. It's like she thinks, "Charge!" when she reenters the room. So, will try that as well. I'm betting having them on the same leash together will help too. Haven't tried it yet today. But, is on the agenda if need be for tomorrow.
Thank you both once again, for the advice. It is much appreciated.
Yes, Zeux was given to my DB at 5 wks of age. Much too young to be away from mom or littermates. But, the dog was basically dropped off at his house, so it wasn't really his choice that the puppy was taken away from the litter so early. He had only owned APBTs prior to that, so had experience and was familiar with the breed before he got the 5 week old pup.
An issue he and I go around and around with, is that I think he anthropomorphizes the dogs. Gets under my skin! He knows I take issue with this. Also, he is reading this over my shoulder. lol We are working towards compromises as far as the dogs. I think, like you correctly assumed-that a majority of our dog issues start with us!
Sorry, kind of off topic. But, I think the background helps to see what I'm/we're dealing with as far as dog issues, right? As to what you said about "Patience".... Luckily, I have an abundance of patience, so no worries there. It seems as if each day goes smoother as far as Lily-Zeux interactions. YAY! To that!
LadyFrost- Yes, I think Lily being in the same room while in time out will be a good idea! Because when she is alone in the other room and then comes back out. It's like she thinks, "Charge!" when she reenters the room. So, will try that as well. I'm betting having them on the same leash together will help too. Haven't tried it yet today. But, is on the agenda if need be for tomorrow.
Thank you both once again, for the advice. It is much appreciated.
by LadyFrost on 20 June 2013 - 08:06
keep us updated...:)
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