EXTREME Aggression - Page 5

Thanks - the posts have now changed their temperments :-) When reading any posts - we can all read into them differently than they were intended. I have done Schutzhund and understand why, what, where & how - but after I had read some of the previous posts they left a sour taste in my mouth. GSDfan - great post. I do think Lily was right to write her reply though - as how many other people read into it the wrong way?, as the heading is - EXTREME Aggression!

Aggressive but stable...is usually what people are going for when they mention aggression with the German Shepherd. I don't think it's meant to imply a dog that is crazy and unpredictable. I do agree we should attempt to explain it because anyone who isn't familiar with this kind of temperament will immediately label it as such. I normally don't like the term aggression, anyway, as it can mean so much. I prefer saying 'intensity' and 'power'.

To sound like a pure idiot, could someone please fully spell out "Crock's" name please? Just curious to take a gander at his pedigree. Thanks guys!

I know a NUMBER of high level schutzhund dogs who are also certified therapy dogs and work/socialize in normal environments and NEVER show aggression off the field - but in the field are hard core and NO ONE questions their aggression. My dog, a simple showline male, is a good example, no one who knows him, from vets to neighbors believes he is the same dog in the pictures of him during protection work. He is a lab in black and tan off the field. I believe Lily (and others like her) who are judgmental with no factual basis (i.e. making opinions with no real investigation or facts) are the TRUE danger to our breed. Dog attacks occur for a number of reasons to include poor breeding of the "flavor of the day" dog (which happens to be whatever dog is popular this week...), poor training, people with work schedules/family commitments, etc that do not allow for proper time spent with the dog, the fact that the news media has become so greedy for any story due to the advent of 24 hour a new news channels and finally the fact that there a LOT more people in the world living A LOT closed together these days. While I somewhat cringe when I see posts like the OPs - because I don't think he really knows what he is getting into/doing (someone who hasn’t even waited for a bitch to mature is going to start breeding extreme dogs? Sound like a train wreck to me…) - but the follow up post by Lily is even more concerning. She obviously knows NOTHING about the breed, the sport, or the correct breeding of working dogs. Finally, for what its worth, here in the USA the most stabile dogs available are the ones bred to the European standards, which include protection titles for studs/bitches. I don't know if it because the person who goes out looking for a well bred dog is more likely to handle it properly or if it is just the piss poor breeding practices allowed by the AKC (read no standards), but there is a big difference in the number of problems between the two.

CONTINUED: Regarding the original poster - do you even know what civil drive is? My understanding (and I don't claim to know for sure) is that it is a dog who, when necessary will engage a human who is not wearing sport equipment - i.e. bite the man not the sleeve. I've heard the term "civil edge" used with dogs which show a high degree of suspicion and/or lack or even temperament around the general public - but I believe that is a fault or at least something to be trained around. "Extreme aggression" as you put it, is the “edge” taking WAY overboard and is a huge fault in my book. There are "extreme" dogs out there that are worthless unless you plan on keeping them chained to a tree. A dog is not a weapon, get one of those if you must. Otherwise wait for your dog to mature and TRAIN her correctly. I've seen neutered showline males with no prior training or an ounce of aggression (no real prey for that matter) in 30 days turned into wonderful personal protection dogs in the sense that they became aware of their surroundings, would alert on anyone acting suspiciously and would bark VERY convincingly. They would NEVER have the guts to engage but my point is that you don’t need an over the top dog if your training is correct. If a nothing dog can be turned into a PP dog that would convince anyone but the most determined attacker not to mess with you, there are a lot of even temperamented dogs that can be taken a step further with no danger to anyone. You seem to want to play with fire – what are your true intentions with such an “extreme aggression” dog? Finally, I noticed PSA in your handle. I assume you are into that sport. Most of the K9 handlers/breeders/managers I’ve known are horrible trainers and/or handlers. Aggression is their solution to proper training and/or not taking shortcuts. They can’t train a well bred dog to bite because they either don’t have it themselves or it is to much work – it is just easier to breed/seek out dogs that will bite anything because then you don’t have to train it – just beat the sh!t out of the dog so the only person it doesn’t bite is you. While agree that not every dog is cut out for true “street work” or personal protection training, I don’t see any need for EXTREME aggression if you are responsible, know what you are doing training wise and put in the proper level of effort. -Calvin

Crock vom Erlenbusch i believe!

GSD Fan, you have the perfect Shepherd & explain yourself very well. This is how a Shepherd should be, I have met many like this & they are what inspired me to want a GSD in the first place Maybe the problem is that people don't really explain themselves well. we don't all have crystal balls. Comments about dogs such as 'He is a real handler eater' don't really come across well. Knowing the full story about the 'bear cage' It isn't so bad, but it sounds bad they way it is written & in light of some the accompanying replies. I find it very funny to be considered a danger to the breed. There are many people out there who breed sick, illnatured GSD's purely to profit & sell them to irresponsible people. Many of these pups are mistreated & abused or neglected by their owners, the lucky ones end up in Rescue centres like the one I taught animal welfare at, many end up PTS. And i am dangerous to the breed? I took my immaculately kept, well shown, obedient, handsome GSD for his visits to care homes weekly, when i took him to work with me at the rescue centre one week the staff said they had never seen a GSD like him, in such good condition and so well behaved. When he represented his breed at a major event he laid on his side while six children lay next to him resting their heads on him sighing with contentment. A breed expert said he had the perfect temperament. My other GSD, from Schutzhund lines lived to 13 & was loved by all my neighbours who bought her presents if they heard she was ill & gave the dogs gifts as Christmas because they admired them so & appreciated the fact that they felt safer in their homes for having the dogs about. Yes, i guess i am a danger to the breed, it can do without owners like me!

LaPort, Russ's dog Bronko was a handler eater till Russ got him! It is my knowledge that Bronko chewed up 3 handlers before Russ! I understand that Bronko was handled by the other handlers with hard corrections which the dog does not need. Russ does mostly all positive reinforcement training with the dog and he does wonderful! Some dogs you can't yank and crank on or they will come right back at ya! Russ understands this dog and gives him exactly what he needs! Vickie

It's Crok, without the c. I don't think it's ill-nature for a shepherd to be suspicious of strangers. A dog lying on its back for strangers is something I'd expect from say, a Golden Retriever...but I believe the shepherd standard calls for aloofness, which is what attracted *me* to the breed in the first place. Again, not 'extreme' agression kind of thing, a dog that is teetering on the edge of madness and can't be controlled is not what I mean. In my mind a good GSD should be tolerant, not submissive or clingy. I believe the reason it is being said that the German Shepherd is no longer as useful for work as it once was was because the softer temperament valued for family life is not what's needed for work.

shinokami, I agree whole heartedly about aloofness. -Calvin