please explain ? ? ? ? - Page 3

Kenny, i have been around dogs my entire life. There were discussions about, what should be bred and why aswell as what should not be bred and why not, as far as i can think back ! I bet you did check on this side, you can find it anywhere you look. From the scientific side of it, it is a fact that dogs with hip problems are more likely to produce pups with hip problems, than dogs with no hipproblems. Then there is the factor of how a pup is raised, SV tells us, HD is just a 20-30% factor (Genetic wise), the rest is how a pup was fed,raised and trained. Well, to be honest, my believes are that the upbringing of a pup plays a considerable role, but not in the marge of 70-80%. The only way in my opinion to get the hip problem out, is to ONLY breed with animals that are free of HD. And rest assured, this matter is frequently discussed in the SV. Even thought, that i have seen a lot of x-rays, when i get my hands on an a2 x-ray, i have to look very close to realize the problem, when i take a look at an a3 x-ray i can see right away. Would i use a a2 stud for my breeding ..... hm, only if i would see a certain trait in that dog that would bring something desireble out in the mating i intend to do. Also the bitch pedigree would have to be free of HD. Would i use a a3 for stud, no way Jose, this would be to great of a gambling for me. To clarify the "Standart" for you, the standart is always a1 hips (a-normal). Then comes a2 (fast-normal),near-normal hips. Then comes a3 (noch zugelassen) still permitted, but not desired. So a3 is still permitted to breed with, but on the "lowest" end one can wish for. So, you can see, there is the "high" end and the "low" end, whatever that will mean to you ! I agree with you that only kennel life for a dog is not desirable. At the moment i only have one bitch and a 4mo old male out of my last breeding. They do live in their kennel and are well cared for. To have a dog kenneld has not to mean, that they are in there for 24/7, at least that is not what i do. But when i have them inside the house at about 10:30pm they stand infront of the porchdoor, wanting to go to sleep ! A breeder here in Germany is limited to 10 breedings per year. I have no problem with that, aslong as the animals are cared for properly. There are always bad apples. Well, to your rotational statement, breeders breed and do not collect animals. Every breeder i know desires to have this one of a lifetime dog in his breeding career, unfortnately to achieve that, you have to make some decisions that are not easy to make. Come home safely. Ulli Dresbach

well i'm not selling any of my "friends" so that i can can have a once in a lifetime dog. if i get him/her then so be it but i think most people are chasing a dream, maybe they'll have one maybe not, but i think you should enjoy what you have. also just so everyone knows although i have paid "paid alot to me" for these dogs, for the price i paid i garuntee noone would sell me a sch dog with excellent hips for what i paid, with shipping to the states, i know because i've looked. breeders will not like me, as i will not take people for their money for my dogs, yes i will breed, no not that many. not enough to make a dent in their profits, but i see it as the average working family should be able to afford the same great dog's that i had to shell out for. 10 breedings a year wow, i'll be happy to breed 2x a year. perfect has it's own meaning to everyone. my dog's may not be perfect to everyone else but i think they will to me and the people that i want to have them. like i've stated i'm not in this for the money, i have a "career" and it affords me what i "need". just you all know, i'm paying for these dogs with my re-enlistment bonus, 1/2 for my dogs and 1/2 for my childrens college fund investment. so some people may be able to afford 1500-3000 for a pup. i cannot. earnest is in my price range and garunteed to do what i want/need. a partially trained good temperment, good overall health dog period. i also think way to many people are to "into " the titles and certifications of a dog. because my dog isn't sch titled or of excellent hips only pedigree, does that not make him still a "good" dog? i'm not competing my dog for championships or conformations. now if any of you would like to give me your titled dog for what i'm paying for my dog then you give me a hollar cuz i'll swing the money to pay equal amt, but i'm still buying my dog. i picked him, i like him, and i'm a man of my word, i told bill i'd take him and i'm taking him. so thank you all for the lessons here, and i have plenty more to learn. but i'm just a working man that loves the dog, not the titles or the money they can make me. sincerely, kenny

Oskar1 First, I'd like to compliment you to your website, tasteful and elegant! Ausgezeichnet! Since this forum touched the Zuchtwert on a few occasions and since Americans need to get their bearings on this important breeding law, why not explain in terms of Zuchtwert how the breeding line in the 5 generation (or more generations) pedigree is being put together? Americans are all hot on the a stamp and as far as the average breeder on the American continent is concerned, that is all a dog needs to breed a good litter. And, then comes the surprise, puppies with HD. I noticed your Anka has a nice low Zuchtwert HD 74. Your B-litter will get a somewhat higher Zuchtwert but still within a good range. If the average American GSD breeder would try to understand the Zuchtwert system, the continent could start improving the GSD breed.

Uvar, thank you for your kind words. Actually, Anka has now a ZW of 70. Not to chevy ! To entirely explain how the ZW is put together.....man, that is a task that should be done by someone else ! This is so complex and changes quite a bit, depending on matings, x-rays taken ........ Kenny, i can not find anywhere in this thread, where someone said your dog is not or will be not a good dog. If your dog has a good health, a sound temprament he probably could be worked succesfully in many tasks.Or he would be a pet to your household and be the best dog you can wish for. Just the breedingaspect would be not a good idear. But since i sense a little "defense-drive" in your answers, i will leave it at that. Just do not talk about bettering the breed by breeding with Ernst. That would throw me totally out of whack. Regards Ulli Dresbach

Uvar, can you imagine the ZW of Ernst ? It must be skyhigh. Not the fault of Kenny or Ernst, just of the guy who mated 2 a3 dogs. Ulli

Oskar1, Somewhere on this site there is an article about the Zuchtwert. The presentation is OK but geared towards Americans. I do get the feeling that everybody familiar with the Zuchtwert is of the opinion that American breeders cannot and will not understand. I have also posted a short sample calculation in Dec. 06 on a forum thresd showing how the litter is being calculated and giving an overview how this complicated calculation takes all the past generations, the siblings into the calculation. I also mentuioned the quartely updates. Unbelievable, but nobody responded to it or asked a question. I have now tried since 2001 to educate individual breeders on the American continent and I have made time consuming efforts to explain and provide sample calculations. It is like talking into blank walls. Months later I realize by observing these individuals that it went in one ear and out the other. All of them are back to OFA, Pennhip and poor litters. Congratulation to the ZW 70!

Oskar1, Just finished reading your post to me. No, I have nothing to do with this Ernst or anybody else on this thread. I simply joined this forum in my efforts to try to upgrade the GSD and prevent further pitfalls by breeders.

Uvar and Ulli, I would appreciate one or both of you posting more about the Zuchtwert and how it is calculated. Our German imports have scores of 79, and 73. I would like to learn how this is determined and how other dogs related can affect the scoring. If you would be so kind as to start a new thread? You can be sure some of us will read and appreciate it. Thank you, Tina

animules: The following was my post about a month ago on the thread "SV Hips". Oskar1 may want to look at it and post her comments. The process of the calculation cannot be explained and is in fact not even available to the public. To all readers interested in the subject: The first step when choosing a good GSD puppy from a good SV breeder is to familiarize yourself with the breeding line of your chosen breeder. Approach the breeder with knowledge about the achievements and the breeding line of the kennel (Zwinger). Your next step will be to choose a dam in the breeding program of this kennel. Look at the dam’s Zuchtwert, a Zuchtwert between 80 and 90 is what you are looking for. A few points above 90 are still OK. Note, there are now GSDs with a low Zuchtwert between 70 and 80, may be the odd one lower. Of course this would be a preferable Zuchtwert but difficult for a USA resident to get a puppy from. If you have a good breeder with low Zuchtwerte in the Zwinger, dogs titled and exhibited, you can leave the choice of stud up to the breeder when reserving a puppy. Please remember that you will have to make your reservation about one to two years ahead of the breeding. Not a good idea to contact the breeder when the puppies are on the ground, other persons will already have reserved their puppies. When this breeder chooses the stud for the mating, you can be assured that he/she will try to choose a stud with a low Zuchtwert. Good SV breeders always aim to improve on the litter. Example: Dam has a Zuchtwert 86 Sire has a Zuchtwert 82 Combined value 86 + 82 = 168 All puppies in the litter will receive a Zuchtwert of 84 ( 168 divided by 2 = 84) In the following quarterly update of the Zuchtwertliste approx. 2 to 3 months after the litter was born, the Zuchtwert of each puppy will be listed. These puppies as they grow can now improve or worsen their Zuchtwert by correct or incorrect matings. Dam and Sire of the litter can also improve or worsen the Zuchtwert with further individual matings, a very complicated system. If your puppy has been exported to USA, unfortunately, you will not have the opportunity to contribute to your breeding line because USA has not yet come up with an agreement, a breeding law acceptable to the SV. However, there are a few breeders on the American continent who now own GSDs with a Zuchtwert. I strongly suggest that you interact with those breeders when you plan to breed. In Germany all siblings, dam and sire contribute to the Zuchtwert of each other. The puppies in Germany can improve their siblings Zuchtwert by selective breeding later on. The purpose of the a-stamp on a dog is a confirmation to the breeder of the litter and added to the records of dam and sire of your puppy. But, the a-stamp alone does not qualify your dog for future breedings. As I mentioned previously, your – the buyers - responsibility is to choose a breeding combination with a good Zuchtwert. Good breeders in Germany do not have to give a hip guarantee anymore. With a good Zuchtwert on your puppy you can expect good hips. But, you do owe the breeder of your puppy the screening of the hips, preferable done in Germany since OFA is not being accepted. And again, when you breed later on your female, the new owners of the puppies owe you the screening of the hips at 24 months of age when done on the American continent.

Uvar, Thank you so much for the information. I am going to save this post for future reference. I was looking at our girls sires and dams HD-Zuchtwerte on the SV web site. Let me see if I understand how to determine the offsprings ZW. Sire 92, dam 79, puppy 86. Sire 80, dam 74, puppy 77 As siblings and offspring are scored the number can change. As we submit ours for "a" stamps that affect the ratings also based on how the hips are? I found most of the parents of ours on the SV site, one sire I did not but I believe he was from Denmark. This is very interesting. Thank you so much, Tina