Kraftwerkk9 - Page 3

Double X- my son's shepherd mix has inflammatory bowel disease with anal fistulas......from about 4 years old he began having massive projectile bloody foul diarrheal stools.....his anal area had about 8 fistulas throuh which stool drained.....my vet diagnosed him correctly, but did not want to treat it, saying he was too old, it wouldn't work, every flare-up we'd get a sympathetic ear, flagyl, & a "we'll be there for you, we know it's a tough call"; my son took him with him out west, & now he's on on a special diet, with antibiotics, steroids, and intermittant cyclosporine (astronomically expensive), but he is his old happy self again, a total goofball @ age 10. Long may he live happy! jackie osborne

How are the hips on these dogs? (ZJangles in particular) I realize hips are always a gamble with German Shepherds, even if both parents have good hips, but I'm just curious. Any other genetic problems?

QUOTE: I will take a deep breath before I tell you that you are an idiot.  In theory, objectively, I agree with you. 

Your first statement shows that you are a confused individual at best. First you tell me that I am idiot, then you sort of agree with me. Sooooooowhere does that leave you??? With a huge vet bill and number 8,000,000,000,000,000 in the people who got screwed and just took it dept.

QUOTE: If after caring for a sick dog for that long, you could dump him in a crate, ship him back across the country to an uncertain fate and live with yourself, then your approach to raising dogs is different from ours. 

 I have recieved sick puppies, and I have sent them back immediately. I will only take a healthy puppy. I do not care how minor the problem is, I am not the idiot that is gonna take your sick puppy off your hands. It is going back. This is a business, and people like yourself with the best intentions, make it possible for this kind of thing to happen hundreds of times over and over from breeders without ethics. You are not doing anyone a favor, nor do people in the business look at your actions as "doing the right thing". You got screwed and are making excuses.

I will leave you with this, Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Jeff:   I agree with you as a breeder and a buyer of pups., also...but now lets address something here........Lets say this is the only pup in this litter , withthis problem,,,,,,who is the sire:     who is the dam:      where are anyother people that havae littermates?  birthdate of this litter is?????   if breeder sent pup well to this party, which could have been,   even if it showed Cocci , which Albon is use to treat , and the pup got home with still the cocci germ there and not entirely gone and it ate its poop after a week or so, and sure its gonna test cocci positive,,,,,,diahrea after an airplane ride, yes  only a day or two ,,if you fed the same food that breeder told you to, and then water change, clorine against well with high copper levels, maybe.......ok we have a puppy stressed at all this change.....give a week or two to settle in....oh a problem still exist....vet says lets test pup  .....okay breeder still is in dark     never having a disease like this in a pup.......call owners of stud or dam , if not mine ......put heads together,,,,,,,where did this come from.......ok   take the pup back....yes     definately and send another pup when next llitter from different pair.........now  back to this pup........any here got a littermate....please respond     did buyer talk to vet of Kraftwerkk9 pups?    is there another pup sick from this same litter?      Lets say there is not....okay...we took pup back and of course, I as a breeder would let my vet immed start the test or send to TEXAS a & M ,,,,,THEN the next step if confirmed is to enforce the Tough Love concept ....continued next comment:

Now as a breeder  I start looking for where this came from:     If I have had it before , how many time do I draw this pair off and out the exit ramp?     if never have had this in my litters by this pair......do I trash them?       the buyers want me to.......and Im not speaking of this party on this thread......hypothetically speaking....as for last year , Ive sat thru many a thread that breeders have been trashed for breeding a health issue and taken over the sand paper for everything imaginable, breeding with out ofa , no titles on one , no titles on either or breed survey,,,,,and on and on....so  now the decision to start research on dam and sire:   grandparents ever produce problems   how do I find out? 

The red mange is one I had a real mud slide with , a few years ago as I sold a female pup and at 5mos old she was diagnosed with it...Vet scared the people to death, had them call me and tell me to stop breeding my sire and dam    and most significantly the dam as the pups have the closest bond to her., and I started trying to telll couple, who one was a nervous wreck and didnt like the pup, and husband ws in obedience training with her at that time......high drive , head strong female,,,,,,she wanted undivided attention ......that in most working lines the tendency for this to crop up is a big percentage when pup put in stress, change environment or has the weaker immune system of the pups, and that I dont just ditch my dam or sire......if that is what I was suppose to do, then I know a whole tablet full of dams and sires with KK1 lbz that have produce pups that come down with this problem that needed to be given the exit ramp....   so we are breeding a dam and a sire that have    how many dogs behind them   all v rated and with sch titles and kk1 ratings      are we suppose to trash this pair for one bad pup in this case a gastrological one, in  my case dermadectic mange stress level disease....?     

I am a bit different when it comes to all this. I have had many pups get off the plane from Germany ect and never had Diareah. I am just not going to accept it. I do not want a dog that stresses out over a stinkin plane ride. I am never going to wait a week or do tests, the pup is going right back, that night.

As far as single pups go, I might "take" one, but never pay for one. I need a bit more than that for the most part. The exception might be if it was female and I wanted those lines, but again, if water can make a pup have Diareah???? Screw that, I don't need to deal with little Mr/Miss sensitive stomach. Not what I am looking for. Need the strong gut, like me! LOL

Overall, as you can see, many people take affront to pointing out that they were taken, and then taken again. This should be a sticky somewhere, so that new people can see it. RAISE your standards, and let the weak die out. I hear about people taking it in the butt at least once a week, and they keep the dang piece of junk. That is what it is, JUNK! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

What do breeder do in these cases  ???? I hear lots of comments that Canto was responsible for certain bad traits,  and this dog and this dog was responsible for these bad diseases.....so  does a breeder stop breeding every Dam and Every Sire: that produce a , one time disease ,    or do you wait it out and see if it comes again?         where do you find the info that dogs before your dam and sire did , infact produce multiple cases of what ever the immed disease is , that your pup is suffering from.........   we just start bashing the breeder, when the buyer should always be told ,,,,,there are illnesses that crop up, thanks to 50 years ago , in my dogs pedigrees, that I may not know anything about,   and that I am and have bred the best I can.....      lets keep this civil and the first one to call me an idiot,   will have to be call by me   A  TOIDI" as I dont call names....

Lets turn this thread into a learning piece....for both sides......

Lets face it, many people breed a dog for sentimental reasons. The French like to say that the US is screwed because the women do the breeding, and they are too weak for it. So where does that leave us??? Is this true?? How about this, if you cannot find out all the info on a dog, including his stomach problems, do you still breed???

It is tough. Canto was born in what the late 60's???? If your lines are so heavily bred on this knucklehead, look for something different.

Another thing, how many breeders have a twenty year plan??? How many are willing to breed, and cull entire litters if it didn't work out??? Lets face it, to be a good breeder, you should be breeding at least three differnt lines, and this makes you "what" in the states???? That is right, a puppy mill. So we try and be PC, try and breed only this to that, and generally half ass our program.

To me, if you cannot cull, then you have no business breeding. If you don't have a dog that people are begging you for a puppy from, then maybe he shouldn't be bred. If he is easy to train, and gets high scores, then maybe he shouldn't be bred. He is not enough dog. There are so many more things that people do not take into consideration.

I had a bitch once eat a 5 pound bag of M&Ms. She did not get sick in the least, and did not die. This is the kind of standard that people need to think about when they are breeding. Weak stomach, weak dog.

Did I tangent??? LOL

No, you hit the nail on the head,,,,,,I put together several lines, and I did it myself,,,,I have had excellent health, but I threw one of the lines in the trash on the first litter.....and it was who the son of a top sch dog was bred with ,, not the son itself,,,,I started calling and getting a brick wall, but did not give up, and finally a vet tech at an office revealed something that led me to find the Mom or dam of this male I used....He had a mom that was a schitzo and had been put to the exit ramp.......I immediately , thanked the owner of this bi male , and told him I didnt need to breed to him again....I was disappointed as I liked the head of this champion of Sch 3 a few years back.....but because the son was bred to a schizo female, this male produced pups that I was not liking at all and knew the difference immed.....but we stiil need the anwer to my questions by someone reading this thread.....the owners of other pups to this pup   in question.....or answers from other breeders as to where do we take our wadders off and jump into the water....sink or swim.....do we stop breeding a pair , koered and not any other diseases forthwith at this litter.??????????????

Jeff.

I agree with you on sending "things" back.  I recently spent four months before successfully forcing a furniture store to pickup and give me a full refund for a poor quality mattress.  I am not a fool or a pushover.  Nor will I be fooled again by an unscrupulous breeder.  It has been an expensive lesson based on trusting someone with a supposedly good reputation.

That being said, two points you may have missed that influenced our decision:  a.) we are not breeders and this is not a "business" for us.  We don't do this frequently as a matter of course and treat it as an every-day transaction.  It is emotional for us.  Whether that is good or bad, it is fact. b.) this was not a puppy where there is no guarantee and things go wrong.  This was a 2 1/2 yr old titled male who had been trained and shown all over Europe, a dog with a good pedigree who had supposedly been vetted by Kraftwerk.  We were paying for their expertise and ability to cull out any dogs with obvious problems.  He is KKl1 with a2 hips and had been examined by vets in both Germany and the US.  We thought we had done our homework and trusted them.  Shame on us.

We also pursued some type of price adjustment through our credit card company, the BBB in WA state, the state and local governments, and the ASPCA and AKC, with no positive outcome.  We finally decided life was too short .  What we have is a dog with issues.  To look at him you would never believe he is not healthy.  Most days he functions well, and our vet feels he has a good chance at a long life of good quality.  I have spent more and gotten a lot less.  If we had returned him to Curry, he would no doubt have sold him again, likely to someone who would have bred him because of his pedigree.  We will "improve the breed" by NOT breeding him.  There is nothing we can do to improve Wayne Curry.