Grafental lines - Page 2

I have to be thankful in a way for all of the crappy W. German dogs that I had before, over so many years. Without them, I would never have realized what the DDR dogs were, when I got them. On the other hand, there were people who gave overly glowing reports, lionizing the DDR dogs, which were equally harmful to these dogs )raising false expectations). They were definitely NOT all good. I identified one bloodline that produced some strange dogs, indeed. They were slow maturing and had on the average bad nerves. BUT.. When bred just right into certain other lines, this line also produced some awesome sport dogs with very high drives and excellent to ample hardness of nerves. DDR dogs tend to be handler sensitive and do not do well with the rather abusive tactics used by many "sport" handlers to break down extreme drive dogs with very hard nerves. DDR dogs DO tend to be naturally protective and I like that, very much! I like a hard dog who has courage, but who will listen to me. I like robust, handsome, big-headed, heavy-boned dogs with deep, rich pigment. I'm a sucker for bi-colors, blacks, and black sables. I love them all. And I am in heaven when I am contemplating several good DDR dogs at one time. I can pick them out from a block away, just on their structure. Prey drive? Oh, yes! We had some dogs with excellent prey drive. But if I only wanted a dog with prey drive, I'd own a Labrador Retriever, OK? Not all of the DDR dogs had a lot of prey. Those that did not tended to be very serious dogs. There are times when you want a serious dog, like when your life depends on it. 'Nuff said!

Again, in disagreement with Shelley, I must point out that it is the West German dogs which diverged from the original breed characteristics, and not the East German. I could show many pictures from my old SV membership magazines to show this. We saw many dogs such as Marko vom Cellerland, and Frei von der Gugge, just to name two.. And these were both SIEGERS. Even Sieger Dick vom Adeloga (Quanto son, right?) was quite dark had a very different look than what we see today in the breed in W. Germany. Now, I will say something controversial, myself, and you can tell me what an ass I am. But it was actually not me who said this, but a young man I met who did breed his bitch to one of my dogs... And he had American show stock. To this day, I write him off as a bit of a jerk, for some choice reasons, but he told me something that I will always wonder about. He pointed out the very rapid "improvement" in West German show lines in the then-recent years, and he stated that NO ONE could achieve such a rapid improvement in rear angulation, etc.. and that he suspected that American blood had been re-introduced into some of the top-winning West German kennels. Strange theory, but it could just be true. Because those dogs did change a lot in a short period of time, and they started to have a lot of the ills attending US show lines, especially the soft ears. I'll tell you another thing. I never had to tape my pups ears. Amoung what the East Germans called "ear faults" were often no more than a wide ear-set. In all the pups I bred (not really so many, but sufficient to make good observations), only one ear failed to go up on a puppy. And he was owned by someone else, so I am not sure that something did not happen to adversely influence his development. But not one ear was taped. On several occasions, I had breedings which produced not one or only one cryptorchid. Compare this with an SV high line bitch who produced five males in a litter of nine and all but one were cryptorchids. This was typical.. A SchH3, Kkl1 (for life) 'A' NORMAL bitch with a high V rating, VA in a Scandinavian country, pink papers, and all she could produce, even in ample sized litters, was yellow-eyed, one-testicled, dysplastic, air-headed spooks! But this was not the only such "high line" bitch I had which could not produce anything worthwhile, and I saw similar in other peoples' breeding programs. I just had enough of it! Strange that I should go over to DDR dogs and after fifteen years of trying to produce something consistently good, suddenly I can!

And, by the way, as for those slanty eyes. Check the breed standard. This breed is supposed to have "almond" shaped eyes. No one bred this intentionally into the dogs to give them a "menacing" look. LOL Unfortuneately, some of the really best DDR dogs went to Czechoslovakia, where they were bred to wolves in experimental government breeding programs. I got one of these creatures, going to such a bloodline, and he was oddly-proportioned, had long stovepipe legs, and acted in a strange, borderline socially-aggressive manner that apparently followed after his father, a dog known to challenge anyone including his owner / handler. Czechs, Romanians, Russians and so forth were known to have funny papers. The Czech and other satellite countries would have had no good dogs at all if not for infusions of good East German blood, in the early years. That was the source and foundation of good breeding programs in all of the East Bloc countries. Thereafter these countries started to import mediocre W. German show lines which then came back into East Germany to pollute the breeding programs there. How these second rate show dogs were gotten into Czechoslovakia was usually by way of trade, through semi porous borders. Good working dogs (destined for the police dog trade) were traded for the show line dogs, but I think that the Czechs did not get the better end of the deal.

DDR-DSH Great Reply. Rarely do we read accurate information on the ddr dogs. I am sure you read the for sale ads on this data base. Many many people advertise ddr dogs and pups for sale. Most are mixed east /west or east/ czech which should not be sold as ddr dogs/pups. In my opinion the czech dogs are really west german foundation not east german as they are mislead buy sellers. People are duped into thinking they are getting the real ddr blood.

DDR-DSH, while I do not want to diminish your great knowledge on East German lines, I do beg do defer: I grew up near the East German border (in West Germany, of course). And I can tell you that there were walls, fences, and so called death strips all along that demarkation line. In the early to mid 80s as part of my training, I received an extensive briefing along with my classmates about the set-up of the East German border control system by our West German Border Police (formerly Bundesgrenzschutz, now Bundespolizei). Besides minefields, they also had self-shooting devices and these dog cable runs. These dogs were in horrific condition as I remember. The popular magazine "Stern" wrote an extensive article about them, after the border came down. They were wild, deprived of human contact, sick, and starved, comparable to junkyard dogs. A lot of them were put to sleep. These were definitely not the kind of dogs East German breeders used, but a lot of their access stock went there. Chris

Well said DDR-DSH I pretty much agree with you 100%, hello John, nice to see you,It's been some time. I myself feel the only good left in TODAYS GSD is the East German-DDR lines along with many from the former Czech Republic Slovakia and the like.I have had Grafental lines for sometime now,yes a mix of show and work,but never the less Grafental lines bred by Mr. Brend Gunther himself Just goes to show you can achieve the golden middle if you try/look hard enough.I purchased Randy Von Grafental to add to our breeding program. No doubt the best money I have spent on dogs and let me say that is a rather large sum over the years. I have decided that I am going to stick with what I know and stay closer to the PURE DDR lines and shy away from the West German showlines for no reason other that is what I like and feel it is closer to the original breed standard (SV)then anything else,for sure here in the United States. All one needs to do is spend some time looking at some of the dogs from 30 or so years ago and then compare them to what we have today....Anyhow, just my opinion. Best regards to all, and Happy Holidays!

Charlie Ivory, I looked at your dog Randy's pedigree and I have a question for you. Please do not take this in a negative way as I am simply seeking information. I noticed he has some Weinerau and Arminius in there. I would like your comments regarding that. I have a pup with a somewhat similar pedigree. It' hard getting info specifically relating to Grafental lines and even more difficult to put a picture together of what happens when you combine those lines with some "W. Ger." showlines.

Charlie Happy Holidays. It is good to hear you have started to keep the lines as pure as possible. There is almost no bloodlines left today and now is the time to start saving them before it is to late. Soon people will not have any east blood to mix. I am for saving bloodlines individually and not combing them with what is left. This is why we lost so much and why we only have the bloodline 13 a today.

Old new guy, Both names you mention are I feel my dogs weak link,but also where he gets the V rating In my opinion. To attempt to get a show rating on a pure East German dog would be like pissing into a fan,just does not really make any sense to try.You need to dig a bit deeper to make sure what you get is pure 100% DDR if that is what you are looking for. It is apparent my Randy dog is fromm DDR blood, but not pure and looking at him closer and then his pedigree will show you this John sometimes I wonder if it is already too late?

Charlie Well planes to save the ddr blood should have been done a long time ago. But as late as it may seem there is still time and hope. It will take more people that there is trying now. These ddr line were built off common dogs always remember that. The best grafental (will use them for example) dogs line breeding and there pedigrees contain what is called kennel breedings. I a very good ddr bitch from grafental breed this way