Question re. Dallas - Page 2

How lucky Jimmy Moses is to have handled 2 of the greatest American champions in his lifetime: Manhattan and Dallas! Thank you for the info, Susan. Makes me really wish I'd been able to meet him! And dare we hope Dallas marks a change in the breed, and the pendulum is swinging back, away from that horrible over-angulation? I'm not knowledgeable enough to have noticed this, (and I only saw the show on the internet) but I've heard a couple of former GS show people say the dogs at Westminister this year weren't as overangulated as in the past, and a few were capable of a decent flying trot, because their hocks weren't dragging on the ground!

Sunsilver, good commentary. I have seen the Dallas in the show ring, and was impressed with his look and especially his presence and character. I think it neeedless to say that if the Ambred GSD showline was saturated with the Dallas' qualities that it would not be in the state it is today. It is perhaps impossible that the Dallas, through his progeny will make the impact done so many years by the Lance of Fran-Jo, but he will definitely make his mark. I agree that it is a shame that a life lived so well was so short, but that is the case with so many of our dogs. Will the Ambred GSD finally make a turn towards the dog described by the F.C.I. standard? That remains to be seen. I ask the same question about the GSD that has been "refined" by the S.V.. Bob-O

Most GSD's, Am lines or German, will exhibit a flying trot if moved out fast enough and if the ring is large enough. It's not just an AKC thing and a dog doesn't need to be a hock walker to do it. I saw it at NASS. The breed rings at Westminster are so tiny that you will never seen the flying trot at the show until the GSD advances to the group competition which is held in a much larger ring. I too hope that Dallas has some influence on the type of dogs seen in the AKC show ring. That remains to be seen as many did not like him, said he was too moderate and looked too "German" whatever that means LOL. He sired 120 litters, but I think most of those litters were bred by a certain faction of the AKC GSD world. Some tried their best to avoid his influence and always will. Their loss...............

Yes, I remember others complaining about that, also about how slipper the surface was. You think they'd do better for the competitors. This is WESTMINISTER, after all! BTW, you folks haven't exactly been falling all over yourselves with breeder recommendations. Please don't be shy. To be a bit more specific about what I would like, I agree with Bob-O that both the American showdog crouch and the German banana back are extreme, and not what the founder of the breed intended. My ideal dog would resemble the pre-Lance show lines. (I think Lance and his son were the worst thing to ever happen to the breed...) I think Manhattan was a GORGEOUS dog, with great bone and good secodary sex characteristics: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sunsilver/CTHManhattan.jpg My current dog looks like this: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sunsilver/Ranger_head.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sunsilver/Ralph2Small.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sunsilver/RalphSmall1.jpg If anyone wants to hazard a guess as to his bloodlines, I'd like to hear your opinions. He came from Quebec, and his owner refuses to give me any info on the breeder, who drank himself to death shortly after I adopted the dog. He's got a great temperment, medium drive, low aggression and is a dream to train. He's the first Shepherd I've owned that was not afraid of thunder or fireworks. I'd also like to qualify that I am NOT ready to adopt a dog at this moment, and am just doing my 'homework' for the future.

BTW, just want to clarify that the pics of my dog on the chain were taken in his former home. He was chained pretty much 24/7 for the first 3 years of his life. Every dog lover for miles around was overjoyed when I took him home! He now has a nice big fenced yard to run in, and the rest of the time, he lies at my feet, or on his nice comfy dog bed. Amazing how forgiving these critters are...the owner origionally tied him up with a choke chain, and didn't notice it was hurting him until it had dug into his neck to the point the flesh was growing overtop of it. Maybe that's why that leather collar you see in the photo stunk so bad I had to toss it out. The owner's advice on training was "If he gives you any trouble, just show him a shovel..." This guy is a neighbour of my mother's and I REALLY have a hard time being decent towards him when our paths cross!

Dallas has had a very significant influence in spite of many people not liking him. On a relatively small amount of breedings, he has produced over 100 breed champions, about ten Best in Show progeny, a Canadan Grand victrix and many select animals at the National specialty. he has several daughters that have earned their ROMs and three sons so far. By relative, Sundance Kid and Lance of Fran-Jo had on the order of 700. The hot dog to breed to right now in American lines is a Dallas son called "Bailey" who earned his ROM at less than three years of age. Lance of Fran-Jo was not a bad dog, he was an overused dog. He himself was not extreme and was of mostly import breeding. He had a lot of really good things going for him. Thye same is true of Sundance Kid, another nice dog that was overused, especially being inbred on a very incorrect dog named Hawkeye. The other dog you mention as great was anything but. He was a good show dog but was a horrible mover, bitchy, and dippy in top line. And thankfully did not get used much and produced even less. He had a lot of money backing him, and like I said, was a good show dog. Susan

It amazes me that Manhattan could have taken the top prize at Westminister if he had horrible movement. Of course, I never saw him in the flesh, and you've got to admit, he looks pretty good in that photo (to my eye, anyway!) "He had a lot of money backing him." Hmmm...sounds like politics must have ruled the day, even back then! What does 'dippy in top line' mean? His back wasn't steady when moving? Fred Lanting says Lance and his son produced a lot of dogs that were sharp-shy. I forget the exact quote, but he definitely inferred it was in their genes, and not from other dogs in the lineage. (I really wish I'd saved that link!)

Susan, don't you think that much of the attraction to Hatter was his personality? Being owned by Jane Firestone didn't hurt him much either, did it? I only ever saw him a few times in the ring, but he just oozed personality. He was faulty dog, I didn't care for his pasterns in additona to thse things you ahve already sited, but for some reason that dog just held my attention every time I saw him. Another AKC dog that really captured my attention in his photos was Uzi. Never saw him though, I am wondering what you thought of him if you care to offer an opinion. I'm really glad to hear that Dallas is leaving his mark on the breed. I did not know he sired that many AKC champs to date. I no longer belong to the GSDCA and don't follow the AKC show results as closely as I used to; I show another breed at AKC shows. I would hate to see such a wonderful dog go to waste. I used to be a member of an AKC list where they discussed judges. At that time, Dallas was the big winner and he got sliced and dised there almost every day by GSD breeder-judges. I'm sure you'd recognize one of his biggest haters, her dog was in competition with Dallas and Dallas usually went over him. I signed off that list, I couldn't bear reading the stupidty of condemning such a truly great dog because of jealousy. I just loved it when his critics said he was "too moderate" and "too German" LOL. I found it ironic that some AKC GSD breeder-judges failed to recongize Dallas' greatness and what he brought to the table. Nice discussion, thanks for the info on Dallas. He was a sweet faced dog and I would have loved to have owned him, who wouldn't? I am always impressed with GSD's that can tend. I had heard about the great love his owners had for him and felt so sorry for them when I heard he has passed. There's never enough time....

Sunsilver, Hatter was owned by Jane Firestone, heiress to the Firestone tire fortune if I remember correctly. She owned several different breeds in addition to GSD's and many were top winners of their day. She had her own private jet and Moses and Hatter traveled to shows in high style. She was a very well respected lady in the AKC world and very generous. I'm not sure if she's still alive and showing dogs or not. Susan probably knows. Yes, there is a lot of politics at AKC shows, especially at the group and Best in Show level. The Westminster show is probably more political than most. Some breeds are worsse than other for politics; I think GSD's are hard to do much with unless you have a well known handler like Moses. After attending NASS a few years ago, I honestly don't think that SV shows are any more honest although we like to tell ourselves they they are LOL. It's just the nature of the beast I guess.

Hatter was owned by Jane Firestone. He did not travel by private jet however. Actually got lost by an airline on the way to the Myrtle Beach shows. Hatter was very sound and got AKC all-breed judges to pay more attention to the GSD in the groups. The dog that Jane later bought and campaigned was the best she ever had and in my eye the closest thing to the standard I've ever seen...Sel. Ch. Altana's Mystique. Sadly she was sterile so did not contribute to the breed. She earned over 200 bests and was a fabulous animal. Petty Jealousy prevented her from winning both Westminster and the GSDCA National (her sister did win it, and she was select three times). She was always turned loose on the show grounds after Best in show as Jimmy packed up. One would see her poking around the grounds, sniffing and picking up any leftover bait. Then he'd whistle and she'd bound over to him and get in the van and off they'd go. All the time the tents were being dropped, gating was closed and stacked, and people were driving off. Neat dog. I didn't know Uzi. Saw him at the National when he went Grand Victor the second time. He was handsome,powerful, didn't have great ears and from what I understand was a bit tough in temperment. He was an decent mover and was sound going away. He also was very masculine at a time when most weren't.