Limited Registration Discussion - Page 6

Just saying: Out of reading this thread Vito seems to be the only one who trained dogs years ago, and still does...

When I heard about "limited registration" for the first time (for those who don't know: I am German) I thought "that's a no-go. When I buy a puppy it's mine, and no breeder has to tell me what I am allowed to do or not with MY dog.
My money = my dog.
Later on I realised that there is a significant difference between German SV and American AKC.
"We" are forced by SV to health test; no breeding possible without HD,ED tests, no breeding with missing teeth or testicles, floppy ears, without endurance test, show rating (size, color, teeth, and testicles), working trial (be it IPO, herding, RH, DH), no pink papers without breed survey...
We can breed GSDS without SV, no problem, but the dogs are almost worthless-one litter and the "breeder" will give up for sure...

AKC is totally different, it's a registry only. AKC doesn't care about health tests, conformation, or working ability at all...
everything is within the responsibility of the single breeder.
BUT
when I (the American breeder) would never breed dogs with health problems, conformation problems, temperament problems, I would NOT want to see dogs with MY kennel name used for breeding although they don't fit my own standard...
A lot of those problems are not shown in a 8 weeks old puppy -
that said as long as there are no rules personally I'd make use of LR.

Someone who doesn't want to breed shouldn't care, anybody else should be okay with my rules.

Not going to comment on "SV rules suck" besides
"They may suck, but they are still good enough to produce the top producers world wide, proudly announced, proudly paid for, proudly used for breeding..."

"Sucking" rules seem to be better than no rules, just saying...
 

well some very interesting points of view.

I agree with Prager 100% that "proofing" was intended in the beginning to be the due diligence. it has devolved to the point that it is not even an indication that a dog can stand steady for an exam.

Vito transport and courage tests are all epitome of prey. I am not saying that prey does not mean lack of courage, I am not saying that. There is courage in prey. What I am talking about is the courage in face of pure non-prey negative challenge. Such is void in sport. 

Susie
Sadly, not training these days....like to say I can't find the time, but "lazy and not motivated" is more accurate. 😔


Hans

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Helper moving at the dog, yelling and swinging a stick. Maybe not the toughest thing in the world, but what are ya gonna do?

Escape....yes.

We will never know, because 99% of the GSDS bred outside of Germany will never be exposed to this ridiculous and useless test...

Vito Andolini
nobody is substituting one for the other.
...

The GSD has always had Prey

that's totally untrue. from my very beginning in world of GSDs i'd learned, cornerstone of dog's base are pronounced defence, strength, agility, strong desire to cooperate with master in work. in fact an explicit prey never have been desirable.
now, i see nearly absurd obsession by prey in the dog  - at breeding kennels, households, sport fields, LE...everywhere.

Vito Andolini
if you don't use food or a toy reward, what is your method?

you should differentiate - food/toy as a tool in training and food/toy as main motivation stimulus for participation in training.

susie
AKC doesn't care about health tests, conformation, or working ability at all...
everything is within the responsibility of the single breeder.

that's why in another topic (which did started LR discussion and was killed by moderators) i did mention - in realities of America (AKC, CKC) that's sole tool for those breeders, who cares about breed quality.
unexpectedly i was ridiculed for such thought by an american breeders :)

Vito Andolini
The transport and courage test are what?

in sport application it's just transition from prey to play and vice versa. 

ValK moderators did not kill any thread, the poor conduct of posters killed it and that kind of conduct will kill any thread.

I was just reading Susie’s post about the SV and how they control breeding. Honestly, I think that is very smart. In a way to make a comparison, like an emissions test with a car. You have to get it checked to make sure it passes so you can drive on the road.
(Truly not trying to compare a dog to a car here. lol)

I don’t think AKC should revoke limited registration. Because i think it’s a great way to keep your dog registered just unable to breed or show in confirmation. But if the AKC would do similar things like the SV does I think that would bring more value to the litters in the United States. I truly think less people would be breeding, and the more serious would keep doing what they’re doing.

Now, I think if the dog is sound, has had its health clearances done and shown it’s performancs through working show etc, and you find a suitable made I see no issues with breeding the dog.

But for those that buy limited registration and have an “oops” litter, I think by law or paperwork both dogs should then be spayed, neutered and every puppy in the litter the same.

It’s not fair to the responsible people breeding to have irresponsible owners. Now I understand mistakes happen, accidental breedings happen. But we need more advocates for these dogs. A buyer can tell a breeder all the right things and then soon as the dog is theirs, first heat bitch is being bred. It’s a shame.

I think if breeders truly stuck to their contracts and went after those who broken contract a lot less people would breed as well.
Just my opinion. But I’ve also never bred before. I’ve had quite a few dogs that were nice dogs but had some sort of issue. Now I have 2 currently that I have Full registration on, but I’m not even sure I’ll ever breed them even though they are my competition dogs.

Anyways, if the AKC would be a bit mife like the SV I think that would be very beneficial.

Joan, very interesting to see pedigree of your dogs.

best,
Rik

vito said: Rik, I don't think LR automatically is someone being hypocritical. I'm sure there are excellent breeders that use the LR to help preserve the breed and make it harder for people to breed without the standard in mind. I'm sure that if I'm the type to title, health check, etc in order to breed, I'm going to look for the same in my stud, etc. I've said previously, I have never had LR, or even looked at an LR litter. Not by choice, just never came across this in where I've looked, but I don't think it is as common in the working lines. I'm not sure it would have bothered me. Realistically, why would it, unless I wanted to breed below their standard?

 

vito, I have been involved in the Am/Can GSD in North America for 35 years or so. AKC/CKC Champions, obedience titles, whatever.

I would really appreciate a list of these " I'm sure there are excellent breeders that use the LR to help preserve the breed and make it harder for people to breed without the standard in mind." as I'm trying to decide on a replacement for my recently deceased, V rated, regional USA Siegerin. (3rd ring in Germany, so obviously not best of the best).

I would also appreciate a few names of anyone in the US breeding with the "standard" in mind. and also which standard you are referencing.

Rik

Vito Andolini:
Hans

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Helper moving at the dog, yelling and swinging a stick. Maybe not the toughest thing in the world, but what are ya gonna do?

Escape....yes.

Hans;
Vito I understand where you are comming from yet i am convinced that you are looking at it wrong way.
As I see and understand thisexcercise is different. The point is not to look at how the exercise looks, but how it is trained and what is in the dogs head. Same as bitework on sleeve looks like the protection, yet it is only a play with a sleeve on helper's arm. IMO I hate to say it and would love to be wrong, but allthis is a fake protection training.
Explanation.How is courage test trained using in prey and staying in prey :
stage of training 1/ Helper runs away- ( or perpendicular to the dog) = prey
stage of training 2/ Running helper slows down - bite = prey
stage of training 3/ helper stops before catching the dog
stage of training 4/ helper advances toward the dog in a non-threat manner = still prey
stage of training 5/ helper is incrementally increasing the speed and an intensity of the attack while the dog by momentum and previous experience of decoy running away, remains in prey.
stage of training 6/ the decoy incrementally goes from running away from dog to starting the run 90 degrees direction.
So what we see is exchange of a pattern of the helper's direction of the motion while the dog remains in prey. To the dog, it does not matter which way the rabbit (sleeve) is running away, perpedicular, or towards the dog, nor what is his friend( helper) who has the sleeve on his arm yelling. while the performance looks like an act of courage in defense it is actually all prey fun game to the dog. Fun. FUN!
Some time ago the helper was not running away to trigger the prey but started from the dead stop directly at the dog. To the dismay of the dog owners, many dogs failed because some dogs actually though that they are in flight or flight situation ( defense) and were not able to deal with it and they have chosen flight and run. Now because too many dogs failed this setup this style of courage testwhich had some semblance of courage under defensiv pressure was scrapped for the type which is basically all prey style as I have described it above. = pussyfication of the courage test is now complete.