Where did the US GSD go wrong? - Page 10

Charlie, sorry I'm late getting back to you regarding the standard that is used by the ACK...ummm AKC. The AKC did not come up with that standard, they tell the parent breed club (the GSDCA for the United States) to come up with a standard and submit it to them. The standard that will be held to is ONLY the one that comes from the parent breed club (again GSDCA for USA). So it's the "fanciers" that formed the club and made up the club's administration that wrote the standard (which at first I believe they used the SV standard), then revised, re-revised, etc to get it to whatever it is today. Like it was mentioned above, all the AKC does is keep records and organize events, beyond that it's all in the hands of the parent organizations for whichever breed you may decide to talk about. Keep in mind as well Charlie, I never said I was a fan of the AmCan showline dogs...nor am I a fan of the black & red "frogs" that are getting all the VA ratings from Europe. I prefer working lines...as anyone here that knows me can attest. THAT is why I say there are 3 distinct "breeds within a breed." The AmCan lines, the Euro showlines, and the working lines.

Ok, Mike explained like that I have to agree...But as for the actual breed standard as far as I am concerned there is only one,SV standard.Ole Maxislooking is rather miffed that I would follow something as she would say so blindy....lol.The dog is a working dog,and different people over the years have tried to adapt it to fit their needs,the end result of which was evident by the AKC national show Maxi was squawking about. She goes on the mention how different they look..Ya think so?...I'm sure she is a nice lady,I have nothing against her per si,it's just that I think she is a little confused as to witch direction she wants to go.Most people never get to experiance a real German Shepherd for instance Stormfront.......Know what I'm trying to say?

I'm thinking gaby dozed off at her computer and forgot all about me.....lol.....

Quote Charlie Ivory: "Most people never get to experiance a real German Shepherd for instance Stormfront.......Know what I'm trying to say?" I'm assuming (and correct me if I'm wrong) you're refering to SG Stormfront's Brawnson SchH3 DPO2 WPO FH2 KKL2lbz? If so, then I know exactly what you mean, seeing as I have one son of his out of a Czech bitch and bred to him about 11mos ago (to our Carmspack Kohl, predominantly DDR lines, solid black...produced a really nice litter). Having owned a showline, there is a TOTAL difference in not only the drives, but the temperament as well...that's why I like working lines so much, they actually want to work with/for you.

You assume correctly.......that is a german Shepherd We can talk all day and all night about DDR dogs as they with out a doubt are my favorite Glad to see the old fellow is still with us, he must be 11 or so by now I would guess. Working lines is what the dogs are all about,I have a Grefental dog that is V rated in Germany that works pretty good but still looks good,I'm not against mixing it up a bit,just don't slam any two dogs together to make some pups.if that is done then slowly the shit numbers litters like that are producing will come down........It can not be fixed over night but we can at least work as a team to try.

You assume correctly.......that is a german Shepherd We can talk all day and all night about DDR dogs as they with out a doubt are my favorite Glad to see the old fellow is still with us, he must be 11 or so by now I would guess. Working lines is what the dogs are all about,I have a Grefental dog that is V rated in Germany that works pretty good but still looks good,I'm not against mixing it up a bit,just don't slam any two dogs together to make some pups.if that is done then slowly the shit numbers litters like that are producing will come down........It can not be fixed over night but we can at least work as a team to try.

sorry about the double post,hate when that happens

And not for nothing Mike, I don't know why he is not V rated instead of SG

Charlie Charlie Charlie we need a pedastool for YOU! You are the man! You and Mike have it together. I have not had the time to read this thread when it started, and have not even gotten through it all the way. But you, my man, have your head on STRAIGHT!!! This is a working dog. Not a dog to trot around and be viewed from the side. Not a dog who has to be worked and worked to be touched by a judge. The AKC people need to just change the breed name and be DONE with it and quit polluting the gene pool. They don't like the German standard - then just get a da** new NAME and do whatever you do without arguing! Charlie and Mike - I admire your conviction and your speaking out. I wish I had the time to get into this in more detail. Mike - I think there are more subgroups under the AKC wing - old style and rare brreeders, Extreme showring type, medium show ring types mixing in SV dogs, and just plain old BYB dogs; the Euro type has 2 types - high and working, and then in the USA there are those making a buck workign hard to ruin the integrity of these by running puppy mills. And come on - wildthing - you don't have any titled dogs. You are buying up pups from here and there and breeding them. Coats too I see. Run your site through grammer check by the way - or don't. It is humorous. Are you near the other PA kennel who stretchs the truth too? You sit here and admire the German dog wildy - but you are just out pumping out puppies and hawking them on the net. But sit here and say you support the system...what you are doing is NOT the system wildy - you might as well just go play in the AKC ring! You are breeding young dogs wtih no titles and no credentials! Shame on anyone reputable who sells you a dog for this purpose. THAT is how our breed got ruined here in the states!!!!! BTW - your male "mommy's boy" had a perfectly good photo and pedigree on here before you added him. And - since it is sort of applicable - the wonderful WDA and NASS you people are so high on is supporting the GSDCA's bid to keep the breed status quo in the USA! Break it down and look at it objectively people!! GSDCA WRITES the AKC standard!!! The WDA is it's token effort to the SV. Look beyond your own personal profits and benefits to the big picture.

Blitz I am not trying to malign the breed, I am trying to point out that the Standard has certain problems that could be predicted just by studying it. I don't think Capt. Max would disagree with me much. In the literature there is much discussion about the problems with too small of a gene pool. It discuses huge problems with creating dogs with missing teeth and bad temperament. I cannot see a point in the history where everyone said yes this is it, this is the dog that fits the Standard. Remember this breed is very young in its evolution. Capt Max talked a lot about his distain of the Luxeushenden. The breeders I have dealt with in Europe are folks that I have a lot of respect for. I have spoken with them about this discord between the working dogs and show dogs. Their belief is that they try to breed dogs that have balance. The balance of conformation and drive. These are things that are found in the top levels of Seiger shows. Chuck , my dog can be found here, Oras Von Lastal. So I hold him up for your discussion, I was told his picture is not great, as he is not stacked well (I don't show) and the photo was taken about 6 months ago just before his tracking qualification. His lines are from show, at 1 year old he qualified with what would be considered an advanced FH. Only the trail was 4 times as old and twice as long, over difficult mountainous terrain with areas of high contamination, as required in the SV world. (note AKC has a tougher tracking standard than SV). His certification is not through AKC though. We do educational programs with children and he would love to do nothing else but bite work, but we cannot allow him for SAR work. He is balanced strong work ethic, good mind and good body.