Andre von der NexxJenn 9-11 months Obedience - Page 2

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by ValK on 13 November 2019 - 16:11

you think it's better if dog project his values and biases onto his handler?

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 06:11

I have no idea what your comment means and doubt you do either.

by Centurian on 14 November 2019 - 11:11

To the OP :
First , I want to say to you that I respect you and that I admire you for having interacted and taught your dog . I beleive that you have done the absolute best that you could with your level of knowledge and esperience !. In this repsect , for whatever it is worth , I am proud of you - you got out and did something with your dog !!! Please take all the posts and comments constructively . I had an expression when I taught classes and now , as I still am working with people , and that is : " we all started off one day holding the dog's leash for the very first time " . We ALL l started from the same starting point one day, myself , and all the posters included . We all have learned … OVER TIME , how to better ourselves and our dogs. So strive to keep learning .

To the posters , all your comments will help give the OP thoughts to think about and will pave the way for him to learn more. - I hope . All the comments I am in agreement with and I hope the OP does learn from your comments and that they give him a little more motivatiin and direction .

To Valk , who often makes very good points : Valk , after such a short time of doing sports , I frowned on many of the sports in this sense . Many people do not train real to life . What is most improtrant , in any endeavor is the canine human relationship , IMOp. That is to say ,what I trained and how I trained for life, is how the dog could perform in competition . Also , how the dog competed was no different than what and how the dog could and would do , day to day in life. I have done bite work in front of the city library , right beside an on looking police officer. , ame work in real life and the same bite workm the dog could do at a trial The bite work in competition was the same as life and how the dog bit in life was the same as they would competing. Ditto fro every other perfromance of the dog , and act. To me there is no value to compete when the dog cannot peform in real life !

A few years ago I took my GS for AD and BH . I never ever once did a Sch BH heel pattern with him . In the BH , the judge looked on while a did a heel pattern [for the very first time ], recall , walk through crowd etc etc. I never was concerned because a fuss is a fuss , a recall is a recall .. and it makes no difference to me , a trial or real life. And ,,, when we think about this : Why should it ? My GS did not miss one beat , the judge came up 2 inches from my face and said " perfect , just wonder fully pefect". Now to me , that is no big deal in the least and nothing to brag about . Because life and sport should be no different . For sport I train as if it is real life [ especially in the Ring Sports] and in real life I train having fun as if it were sport. Sport … [ at least it should ] be ' A WAY of LIFE ' . Just like martial arts , it is not about fighting but rather A Way of Life . Interacting with our dogs should be a way of life , even sport , IMOp . So Valk ..I am on the same wavelength as you are on when : wanting a dog that can perform in REAL life !!

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 11:11

It would be nice to hear from the OP. Not sure what you are saying Centurian except that maybe you cross trained street training with sport training. To me, sport will never be real life. But just because a dog is trained to a high level in sport does not mean he can't perform in a real situation. I think genetics have more to do with that factor than training.

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 11:11

It would be nice to hear from the OP. Not sure what you are saying Centurian except that maybe you cross trained street training with sport training. To me, sport will never be real life. But just because a dog is trained to a high level in sport does not mean he can't perform in a real situation. I think genetics have more to do with that factor than training.

by Centurian on 14 November 2019 - 13:11

Apple - I am not referring to cross training So I clarify .

The sport and living daily life interactions , IMOp for me are , are one and the same . Rhetoricaly , if you ask your dog to heel , why should the dog not heel the same EXACT way , with the same EXACT precision , on the street in traffic , in your house , outside Wal-Mart , on the training field ? That is to say the performance of your request to the dog , should be relably , predicably the same , anywhere , anytime , and any place…. exactly the same manner . Ditto for any other all other requests !

Why should the bite work [ as well as anything else taught] for sport be any different anywhere , any place , any time ? Dogs that cannot do real life protection work , well if they don't have it in them , we can't expect that dog to protect and that is a different issue. The dog cannot do something that it is not capable of doing. However for those that have a dog only capable of sport anad ot real life defending capabilities , then no matter where you are , field , in life , the sport bite work should be the same anywhere , any place , any time , according sport parameters [ hhel is heel , long down is long down , send out is send out , etc etc. ]. How many times we see dogs that perform on the field , take them off and they know nothing in a manner of speaking or execute entirely different off filed ? . How many times I have seen a Sch 3 dog do a recall in and on the training field , and then with no distractions or extenuating cicumstances I see in other situations in life off field , when that Sch 3 dog is called and not come to the owner. And if it does come to the owner why should should it not present itself no differently than in a trial vs real life - because ' Hier ' if taught correctly means one and only one thing to the dog .

Now …. A dog that does personal protection and is capable , why should there be a difference in a dog protecting for real and also protecting doing sport ? Out is out , turn off is turn off - at least it should be that way in Pers. Protection. Obedience is obedience . For what the dog is capable of , there should not be different in a sport and as it lives it's life. Even if I asked my dog to 'fuus' that I taught pers. protection to , that Fuss means one and only one thing to the dog and I expect that it will irregadless of a trial , walking to the park , will fuss exactly as it should [ and that is only one way irregardless and no matter what the context an escort , a stroll , a BH patter , no matter what ] ]. Even police dogs lived in their handlers house , lived life with the officers years ago … What they did in their life they could do in their work and vice a verse .

Apple this is what I am referencing… What a dog is capable of and what it was taught is should be right across the board .. Now a dog useful for sport being able to do real life ptetection , well that is a different issue. It would be nice to have all GS be able to do both real life and sport , I have and those GS that could , but in general that is not today's norm …

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 13:11

I see it a little differently. I agree there are some commands/behaviors that the dog should reliable with on or off the field. But certain sports require a very specific topography of a behavior to score well. For example, in PSA, the dog often is expected to do a bicep bite. If you are going for points, that bite should be high up on the bicep, just below the shoulder. Often you see poorly trained dogs biting close to the elbow. In real life, it doesn't matter where the dog bites so specifically, as long as he apprehends the person. Another example related to PSA is where the recall command is fuss/heel because the dog is always supposed to return to the static heel position. If I were not training/trialing and just wanted my dog to come, I would use the come command and the dog just has to come to me, but in no particular manner or position. I strive for a very precise attentive heel for competition, but I let my dog walk ahead of me away from training/trialing. If I was to take my dog on a 30 minute walk, I don't expect an attentive heel. I can see how it would be different if heel just means to walk by my side. It is kind of analogous to a talented football player who can win a street fight. In football there are certain rules and in a street fight there are no rules.

by ValK on 14 November 2019 - 14:11

apple, if i don't project and teach my dog to obey my biases on how he must react and act in varying circumstances/different
environments, then why i need to train that dog at all. purpose of training are to teach the dog to act/behave on the will of handler,
not a vice verse. if i told my dog to walk next to me, it's mean remain next to me even if that takes hours and miles to do this.
and i truly don't care how he does steps and which direction he look.
if i give command blaib it's mean he cannot leave assigned spot irregardless how many interesting for him things could happens
near by and what stretch of time i was absent.
but you're correct - level of success very much depends on innate temperament of each particular dog.

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 14:11

I am referring to your biases against training with a toy/food and training for precision and thinking it is fake/unreliable, when it actually increases reliability. You value the old school way of the primary use of compulsion. Compulsion/punishment is a necessary part of training, but only after the dog has learned a particular behavior. It is like "reading, writing and arithmetic, taught to the tune of a Hickory stick."

by apple on 14 November 2019 - 14:11

I am referring to your biases against training with a toy/food and training for precision and thinking it is fake/unreliable, when it actually increases reliability. You value the old school way of the primary use of compulsion. Compulsion/punishment is a necessary part of training, but only after the dog has learned a particular behavior. It is like "reading, writing and arithmetic, taught to the tune of a Hickory stick."





 


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