Question - Page 2

Newbie..I wasn't attacking you..just looking at both sides...I agree with you about giving back to the breed etc......I didn't mean to make you feel attacked...sorry...bad night I guess...I will check with the BBB in her area..just out of curiosity.. Sorry again...have a good day..

""""Mike responds: There is nothing in the current sport (yep SPORT) that requires any use of intelligence or advanced reasoning skills on the dog's part. The tracking is stylized, the OB they want to see robots that never take their eyes off their handler, in protection show dogs that barely hang on get pronounced ratings. While titles can be used as a ruler, some people tend to look for the highest scores they can breed to rather than looking at the individual dogs for compatability of phenotype and then look at the pedigree to determine the compatability of the genotype. Also, with show dogs getting pronounced for performances that I would end up selling a young dog if they did the same, how seriously can you take the evaluations?!""""""" But that's no excuse to breed untitled dogs!!!! The system may have political problems but it is the only real system we have to go by. The top working dogs today would not be available to us if we all just bred untitled dogs. The breeder would say they are great top top puppies, take my word on it, and buy one of my puppies.. The American Show Shepherd breeders sounded alot like that he/she is a great dog he/she could title if I had the time blah, blah blah.... It sounds like excuses to me... This is just my opinion...

Hundguy writes: "But that's no excuse to breed untitled dogs!!!! The system may have political problems but it is the only real system we have to go by." Who said it was an excuse? I'm just pointing out that there are misconceptions of how great the SV system is...which btw is NOT in effect in Belgium and Holland and they produce some pretty nice dogs as well with untitled bitches. But then, I guess you would allude they don't know what they're doing although those dogs compete in KNPV and Ringsport? Untitled does not mean incapable, not breedworthy, untested, or untrained so don't make that jump or in the use of words make others believe that those are synonyms. It may be the only system that some have to go by, but that system also disqualifies a capable PSD from breeding because being a PSD does not carry a title under the SV system...though it is a greater accomplishment than a SchH1/VPG1, even more so if the dog is dual purpose! It disqualifies French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondio Ring, and KNPV as well, because they do not give titles recognized by the SV. It (the SV system) is a good guideline, but it has changed and does not show us the intrinsic nature of the dogs like it used to do. So what ends up happening is dogs end up being bred more and more for their sport or show ring to compete at high level and there is a shift in the types of dogs out there. If you gain in one area, you lose in another...something all must keep in mind. Also, what does the system do to help with the control of health issues? The ZW system is a guideline for hips, elbows are working towards being mandatory as well. What about the dogs that are ending up having seizures at "mid life), going sterile relatively young, having back issues, and just plain breaking down by the time they're 6yrs old? But hey, they are accomplished and so were the majority of the dogs in their pedigree...so I guess that's all that counts?!

GSDFan, seems the thread has taken a life of its own... as a former AKC person and yes american lines...old lines, not anything extreme or crippled looking, I have bred with AKC or non Schutzhund titles... My male was titled thru his UD in obedience, had a stockdog association instinct certificate and had earned titles in several agility venues until his retirement at 8 1/2. He was also a certified therapy dog... yes, I bred him... he was a super dog and produced wonderful temperament and health.... My husband is big into agility and his male (who will be 8 in May) has been in the top 3 GSD's for the past 4 years in AKC agility, he was #1 in 2002. He is almost done with his MACH3 (that is the Agility Championship... his 3rd time around). He has a CDX in AKC obedience (3 shows, 3 legs.... scores 195, 196, 197... 3 different judges..... He is also a certified therapy dog and has an instinct certificate for herding... those aren't worth anything except to those of us who want to see what our dogs will do on livestock....They plan to do some tracking soon. A lot of folks don't consider agility a working sport... whatever, it shows the dog has drive and can take direction and work with his handler as a team.. these 2 guys of mine came in 17th place in their height class at the AKC agility Nationals this year with 13 border collies ahead of them... There is something to be said about a GSD who can do that just before his 8th BD!! Yes, he has been bred... the agility GSD community has made him their star.. I see no problem with breeding a dog with AKC titles and good temperament, health etc.... there are many different groups of people out there looking for good dogs.....There are a lot of import dogs not worth the scorebooks/pedigrees they came with and just as many breedings not suitable for the average person... I too have a problem with the term backyard breeder - or BYB - as some lists call it.... cuz folks, I use my backyard in my breeding endeavors... doesn't make me a puppy mill, doesn't make me bad.. I breed a small number of litters, maybe 1 or 2 a year... my setup is perfect, conditions excellent and I am working with some very good bloodlines and breeding stock.... I have a plan and a vision and I screen potential buyers mercilessly.. the not so serious ones always run off... Seems we need another term .....

You know, DKiah, I have no problem with North American lines, that is to say the type YOU seem to have....but.....why are they not out in the ring??? It's usually the "other" type that is shown and then BRED to...there are, I believe, many good NA lines, but they are somewhat hidden!! Perhaps you people could bring them OUT so that THEY come into the gene pool. As for agility, I think it's quite a LOT of work for the dog....a GOOD thing....the SV is promoting it more now also..especially as it appeals to young people. I have a client who works with one of mine at this, and it IS quite amazing, a little harder than the scaling wall...LOLOL Good luck with yours Michele

Mike....while the GSD was initially used a LOT as a police dog, times are changing.....because of the versitilty of this breed, they DO make excellent companion dogs, that give their owners much pleasure and do help to guard their homes....whether they would actually attack an intruder depends on the dog, but....the barking is an excellent deterant! We also have to keep in mind that we now have a very whiny suing society and breed bans are a constant threat....the dogs do not need to be aggressive or biting machines (Sport) but they DO need impeccable temperaments and good drives and proper structure, not necessarily the VA type, which I consider a fad:) I think the SV's many changes are a reflection of the above mentioned points. It is wonderful that many of you breed for K-9 etc services, but...that is NOT the only purpose and capability of a GSD....they make excellent SAR dogs, guide dogs, even therapy dogs, which may not be a big deal, but a service non the less. I believe and work hard to breed to keep the breed intact, focusing first of all on temperament, good drives but not extreme, health (which we can try to evaluate by going far back into our dogs' ancestors to see who gave out "what") and functionable structure. The SV SchH title is still all we have for an evaluation if our dogs are "on track"...so they don't have to be HARD...big deal, most people couldn't handle a dog like that anyways....It's hard enough to find responsible people that realize they are not getting Rin-Tin-Tin and know they will have to work to make their little one NOT a menace to society. A MENACE encourages BREED BANS... The LAST thing this breed needs!!!!!! My answer to the "Question"....yes titles, any clubs, for that matter, just to show the dog HAS traits that MAKE a GSD. I have no problems with AKC titles, they still have to earn it. Michele

Rezkat5......yes HGH is one of the few working titles recognized as such....you WOULD be surprised though how many USCA clubs will tell you, NO you can't enter your dog in this or that class....until they are enlightened by USCA office:):):):) It's a well earned titled indeed, they herd 200-300 sheep for this trial, needs tons of stamina and strong enough nerves to NOT antagonize the ram:):):) The dog also has to make it's own decisions at times, so I consider this a REAL working title rather than a practised routine. There are always different situations in herding to challenge a dog's abilities to "handle" it without the shepherd's instructions. As I own several of these, coming from very old lines, I have found these herding lines to be very true to breed, endless energy, alert and sound temperaments. Also tend to be good with kids. Sorry.....went off topic. Michele

Thanks Michele. I have a HGH dog that I titled here in the NJ. I plan to have him breed surveyed this fall under Herr Wilfried Scheld. It's amazing how much he knows, that I don't. Half the time, I feel that I'm better off keeping my mouth shut. He's exactly as you say, endless energy (when it's needed, he's quite the slug in the house), and a very sound temperment.We are also hoping to optain our SchI later this year. :). Check him out. We also recently received an SG show rating. It hasn't been updated on the site yet. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/377128.html

Mike Russell Wrote: Who said it was an excuse? I'm just pointing out that there are misconceptions of how great the SV system is...which btw is NOT in effect in Belgium and Holland and they produce some pretty nice dogs as well with untitled bitches. But then, I guess you would allude they don't know what they're doing although those dogs compete in KNPV and Ringsport?""""" I said it sounded like an excuse to me. I consider KNPV, French Ring, Belgian Ring and Mondio Ring working titles. Mike Russel Wrote: Untitled does not mean incapable, not breedworthy, untested, or untrained so don't make that jump or in the use of words make others believe that those are synonyms."""" How many generations of untitled dogs in a pedigree are ok for you to purchase your breeding stock out of?????? Give me a break!!!! I am sure every untitled breeding dog (I am assuming this from the passion in your posts!!) you breed comes from titled parents or from titled bloodlines up close... YOU KNOW WHY??????????? Because you are able to find information about their working abilities and titles. Because you heard how strong that dog was at the WUSV Championships, because many people have watched him/her compete over the years and can say how strong the dog is. NOT BECAUSE THE OWNER SAID HE IS ONE STRONG DOG EVEN THOUGH I NEVER DID ANYTHING WITH HIM "TRUST ME" HE IS GREAT!!!!! We would already have lost this Top Working Breed if we all went that route... I know I took this thread off track, sorry!!!! :-)

no problem Brandoggy just this particular person I did check out or would never have used her breeding sutuation as an example and I will not post who and dont wish to know who you think that way nothing is said about anyone its just an example to make a point of how i feel on it. I am maybe a little defensive not just you and I also apologise. DKiah I was in no way terming puppy mill breeding as being folks and breeders doing what you describe. what i have a problem with is folks who have say seven bitches of decent blood or not determine they want to breed for pet dollars okay this person would own their own stud so they dont have to pay stud fees ,Using a medicore stud no titles either> . Now they use the bitches every heat after the first they do nothing with the dogs they are not just "test" breeding them before sinking money into them they do not involve the dogs into any physical or mental activity they are just there to reproduce. They for one are not choosing studs to strengthen the bitches weaknsses you cant tell me that one stud is suited to every bitch they own? then they have the gall to advertise the pups as from titled lines pay attention not titled parents or they use phrase like seen from titled parents shown here. Then they tell you each puppy is from excellent breedings of wonderful parents and proceed to give the atributes of them all and they have never in their life ever even shown or worked a dog? They then promise you that their pups can do anything and everything under the sun look we all know from a litter some are gorgeous without the work drive and it breaks your heart some are butt ugly and will never let you down working. Every person has to make the individualized descision on to or not to breed their dogs im not against that at all. I did not mention french ring or other items because I consider them titles of their own respective and eqaul to any other. All I am against is breeding satisfied with producing nothing but pet market using that as their ONLY criteria to decide. Then the people who are dog ignorant and buy those unlimited akc pups say hey lets make a quick buck they did it why dont we then they breed to anything with no care as long as it has papers that calls it same species and will get them money. These noted folks have never had a litter give improper care nutrician and socialization cant wait to offload them as soon as they find out hey this is stinky, noisey, and it is work. I have bred myself 9 litters in 20 years I started out as a junior w/Bouvies, Giant Schnauzers,was raised alongside a friend with a show kennel and was with them every waking moment and learned alot alongside their daughter Later I had Rottweilers and English Mastiff when I became out on my own as adult. I only bred those dogs of mine that gave to the breed or improved significantly the lines. I have paid a bundle for a dog to have it grow up and shake my head and have it spayed even though it was genetically sound decent looking could have made excellent pets. My call and what I had to live with. I have helped with large breed rescues for many years I have salvaged good, well bred dogs from pounds and turned them into usefull working companions for sar, therapy, and for the physically impared. I am new to gsds and i am new to sv but again i am not new to the plight of excess dogs when so many good ones are being killed. The owner knows their dogs they know the intelligence, physical well being and structure all I am saying is if they dont contribute to the good of the breed with or without titles and ratings dont breed them just because you can.