Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 2

Don't think the Tibetan Mastiff, as a breed, is quite extinct, yet ? I must check UK KC registrations for the past period, still seem to be a few about, here at least.

Dunno, Bee; you may be right about the fad in China running its course. (Fingers crossed !) I can't remember (& don't have any computerised way of checking) which sites were looked at when we were all discussing this
phenomenon. Those sites were active and changing at that time - which I think was since I moved to this address, so its within 5 years. Maybe that is long enough to count as "years ago" / ancient history; seems like about 5 minutes to me ;/(

I would imagine that many of the breedings were not done BY the importer(s), but from bitches taken TO that German dog / dogs - could be by anyone, really, with any strange preferences. Stud dog owners the world over have always included those who are not very fussy.

There is more canine Genome Mapping going on; the UK has a project currently, but unfortunately GSD are not one of the breeds being featured in this first tranche. They are apparently scheduled to be included in the 2nd, starting, I understand, next year (2018). Maybe there will be a few more answers to relationships between Mastiffs and Shepherds out of that, or better tools for discovery of cross breeding ?

I didn't say "extinct" as a breed, but literally abandoned and needing rescues because of a fickleness and change in popularity for ownership.

One can guess or imagine any number of possibilities but the proof of it, is another thing.

 

interesting reading:

 

http://www.icbblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Boyko-and-Boyko-2014-Dog-conservation-and-the-population-genetic-structure-of-dogs.pdf

I know I read somewhere that early show line GSD breeders introduced Mastiff blood to make the dogs more heavy in body. I really see no other way to go from a thin Malinois build to the huge build that show line GSDs have even now. Also GSDs were first being breed around 1890, but the dogs used to make them would have been just called Shepherd Dogs as they were dogs used to herd sheep with no real pure dog breeds involved, and those dogs have been around for a long time. Shepherd dogs have existed as far back as biblical times.

It's possible we can't access the Chinese website due to government restrictions. I remember hearing that one computer company was refusing to sell software to the Chinese because the government insisted on having a program built into the software that blocked access to foreign websites. Here's a Chinese dog in an SV show in China. You can see how heavy the head is..

 

Here's the pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=661015-dango-von-qishizhongde

He's a Cimi von Fichtenshlag son.

Oh, and check out his son...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2301419-goetzo-von-xin-yi

You can see that it won't take too many more generations to get the really extreme dogs that no longer look anything like the breed we know and love.

 

 

Well because a variety of different 'Shepherd Dogs' were combined to start the German Shepherd Dog, there were a variety of body types & build, even then. While the Standard sets a 'medium strength, medium bone' preference, if some want(ed) to breed for increased size - in any lines - they could take larger specimens and gradually build up on that. There was a trend in 50s onward Europe to get ever bigger dogs for 'manstoppers' for PPD and LE work, never mind increased bulk in American Show Dogs. Some pet owners thought they wanted bigger dogs because that was what they saw around them, from the BYB market - they didn't know anything about the Standard. So you don't actually need to cross anything else in, you just need a bit of time.

Cimi is in I think all of those Chinese dogs with the mastiff heads. At least that I've noticed. I've also noticed that Remo also produces an odd head type, IMO. Sort of a round-head, short muzzle thing.

Exactly what I'm trying to say, Hund!

These dogs show other Mastiff physical traits apart from the head. I doubt the Chinese that produce these dogs went to all the trouble of trying to get this extreme type to breed true from pure GSD when they could get it in a couple of generations with Mastiff crosses bred back to GSDs

Going by what the serious CHinese breeders are buying up in Germany, I doubt they are breeding dogs like this, the fanciers of this type are almost defintielya splinter group as they do not appear at the regular shows under German judges.


Margaret N-J

Can give you one example if you like Sun; one of the first GSDs I got involved with the care of, as a 13 year-old, was a (black & red) male that was a "guard dog" in a local haulage yard. This is in '62/3. [We could have guard dogs in those days !] He was huge (not like a Mastiff or with a disproportionate head LOL) - he was considerably longer than he was tall, and he was at least 27 inches @ his wither. I don't recall how much he weighed, if I ever knew. Appropriately enough, we called him "Titch".

Definitely BYB, btw; I knew his parents too. Quite how many generations removed from imported German stock they were, I dunno; but they were definitely GSDs, and both - especially his mum - on the large side, though not as big as their son turned out.

I am with Kaffirdog - the CSV breeds "normal" German Shepherd Dogs, and they spend 100 of thousands of Euros for imports.

For sure they like "big, massive dogs", but I doubt they are able to change a breed that much that fast without "genetic" help from outside ( some kind of Mastiff ).

http://www.csvclub.org/

That´s the official Chinese breed club, and there are no extraordinary massive dogs.