Defense - Page 20

it is no personal attack when ESL members make very difficult sentences and others point that fact out.

as far as wordy I find it more efficient to direct novices to really good sources and videos from well proven trainers than to reword and repackage stuff rather badly, like here;

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/arminhome.html

and here;

http://leerburg.com/articles.htm

just for starters.

If there is confusion in using certain words with "defense" dog behavior and training, it isn't coming from me.

Imprinting has an additional and broader definition: to cause (something) to stay in the mind or memory.

The difference between default and imprinting should be accurately explained. It should be easily agreed by all, and that is one behavior results from the absence or failure of an action known as: default, and imprinting is the result from a deliberate action. Presumably, the trainer has the ability to initiate an action, or not.

Therefore, default action behavior has to be genetic (nature) and imprinting action behavior should always be something trained (nurture).

I suppose the hope is to keep repeating the confusing rewordings/repackagings until other's start to regurgitate them right back out.

Look all the definitions up, apply them correctly, then there is no need to make up your own... IMHO

beetree you are trying too hard:)  Where did you get your additional broader definition of Imprinting? Can you document it? training is about psychology. Imprinting in psychology is about recognition of what the animal see first early in the life they then recognize as a parent. I was unable to find any other definition in field of psychology . 

 

Default: You'r right ultimate default is genetics and I talk about it elsewhere but here we are talking about training. I am talking about generating defaults. This is not just my idea. Armin Winkler which  vk4gsd is recommending but obviously not deading is talking about same thing but  he just describes it but is not giving it specific name .  I say :
What the dog learns first, he likes most, does baest and rewerts to under stress. Thus as you can see I am talking about learning. Thus for example if you train the dog  to sleeve to man the dog will always prefer the sleeve over the man. I import many dogs train in sport - hundreds of them - and we need to retrain them from sleeve to man. I am at it for almost 50 years and I would be elated if you or anybody can show me how to remove sleeve as a default from the dog's mind. I mean yes you can re-train such dog to bite a man but every such dog if submitted to adequate test will revert to the sleeve ( or other such equipment ) default.  The dog with equipment default can be taught to bite a man by specific positive or negative  motivation . But that is really only a obedience. The desire of the dog,  and it shows specially when such dog is under stress, is  sleeve ( equipment) preference. Such stress penetrates what the dog learned more recently first and then as the stress increases the it will penetrate   to older and older (earlier)  training until it comes to the training default. Then if the default established by training is penetrated then  it goes to genetic predisposition . But that is out of realm of training.    Some say I am bias and I am   bias  towards the knowledge and truth I have required and which from my point of view. My bias is not to disagree with someone just because I do not like them. I am willing to learn from anybody even from Joan and vk. lol. .   I repeat I will pay good money to anyone who can teach me how to remove default of equipment orientation. It would help me tremendously  to advance my training knowledge. But just to argue semantics and not liking someone   is not going to remove  the facts. I do not care about words as much as you do.  I am about training.  This is about training. So show me ! I am from Missouri on this one. 

Prager Hans 

 

Truth is, I am hardly trying at all. Just using some basic logic.

I want to understand some behavior I see in my own dogs, and reading your treatises just doesn't help clarify, but instead, they produce the opposite result. If you get around to writing that book of yours, I hope you find a really good editor who can make it readable and understandable. 

I didn't limit myself to a psychology discipline, that is what "broader definition" encompasses, much as you didn't limit yourself to Middle Ages origins, but used the modern field of computer science when you applied their concept of "setting a default" within your own use. 

Don't you want to be understood, plainly?

 

Out of 5 pet dogs I have owned, there have been bites, and never a scrap of equipment. I want to know the difference in which bites were defense, or prey, or fear based. That is why I want to understand correctly, the ideas being espoused. Shouldn't they really have precise definitions? Not each individuals personal tweaking to fit a POV?

Oh, and one bite point of origin, we happened to have been on my porch.

So what is your point? To memorize something does not fit what I am calling default. And FYI this is about psychology. Thus IMHO you ought to apply psychology. This is not about imprinting something into a surface.
and
Please do not worry about the way I write. Worry about why you worry about how I write.
Advice: if you do not like how I write my posts -do not read them. Is that succinct enough for you?
 

My point is the same point I made with my first post. Nothing has changed except you wish not to be challenged with your errors. Like this latest disingenuous attempt to work in "memorization" as if that was the appropriate meaning. I don't worry about you at all about anything. How vain of you!

Your PM to me is irrelevent when it comes to numbers of dogs trained. Don't PM me anymore with your snark. I am not the one making a living off of dogs. A so called expert, should be that which they claim.

Apparently, there are folks who understand your .... whatever. I give them credit for that sort of bizarre skill.



 

Bee, it's not 'understand', it's 'ignore'. :-)

beettree I am sorry that misunderstood the purpose of your screen print. Please explain to me what part of the screen print did you try to point out to me? I truly do not understand what you are trying to say. I see these points on the screen shot:

Imprint:

1/to create a mark by pressing against a surface

2/to cause (something) to stay in your mind or memory

3/ to mark by or as if by pressure : impress
4/to fix indelibly or permanently (as on the memory) to subject to or induce by imprinting

Non of these has anything to do with default - at least that is what think . I would be glad to discuss any of these points from your point of view and I am willing to correct my error. And no I do not mind for my opinions to be intelligently challenged. That is one of the main way for me to learn. But I think that you violate TOS #18 and degrade my and other peoples language. Please keep in mind that English is my second language and I am doing my best to use it as correctly as I can.

As far as my PM goes ( Since you brought it up) I do not understand why you think it is snarky. it was non of my intention for it to be so. But I know that I come accross  more bluntly then I often intend.  I asked you if 5 pets is all you have trained since I want to make sure since that is what you mentioned in one of your posts. I was wondering if you have trained some other dogs too. I asked that because I wanted to make sure since I am trying to understand what is your background in dog training which I think is always helpful when things are discussed. And I have used PM since the amount of the dogs you trained is not part of this thread.   I hope you can forgive me  . I apologize if you have find that as inappropriate. 

Prager Hans

Grow up, Prager. When you "LOL" with your PM comment, you weren't laughing with me. I certainly don't buy this little act of contrition, either. Don't PM me again, I will just block you.

I made my point at least three times, already. You can't have genetics (Nature) be the default, and then have the trainer (Nurture) setting the default. That does not make sense. Pick one.

I am well aware English is your second language, and no where am I violating TOS #18, because that is not relevent to you making up your own definitions, as you have yourself labeled as "Hansisms". Or some such. I don't care enough to go back and find out what you call it.

Furthermore, I am not going to continue along this line and be played with in this little ego game of yours, it serves no good purpose, and the rest of the posters don't want to read it. We are done.



 

You are making things up now there is no LOL in my PM . Yes I was little amazed that you have had only 5 pets. Nothing wrong with it. But this is not appropriate for this thread so I stop.
;)