Would you breed a blue mal? - Page 2

Pedigree Database

by Hired Dog on 21 October 2019 - 16:10

Cent, why dont you tell us who are those "ignorant" people who will take any dog as long as it works?

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 21 October 2019 - 16:10


This is  more specific in breeders lanquage maybe you can translate this with google translate from dutch to english

Explain the blue colour


"Blauw is een verdunning. Het ligt op de D-locus en is enkelvoudig recessief.

Dat vererft als volgt:

D is geen dilute (verdunning)
d is wel verdunning

Als een hond D/d heeft, draagt hij dus verdunning, maar omdat het recessief is, heeft hij twee genen nodig om het te tonen.
Als een hond d/d heeft is het dilute, vurdund dus.

Zwart wordt het dan grijs, bruin wordt isabel (de kleur van een weimaraner).

Beide ouders moeten dus drager zijn om blauwe pups te krijgen, maar als beide ouders drager zijn, zie je dat niet in de ouders.
Pas bij de pups kan het naar buiten komen.

Theoretisch heeft van die pups dan 50% D/D, 25% D/d en 25% d/d.
Oftewel: 50% heeft en draagt geen dilute, 25% draagt het maar toont het niet en 25% draagt en toont het wel.

Dilute is een vaste eigenschap, ofttewel: het grijs wordt niet grijzer.
Wat wel kan veranderen is het sable patroon van de hond: het kan op de rug minder donker worden; normaal minder zwart, in dit geval mnder grijs.
De lichte pigmenten (rood in dit geval) worden nauwelijks door dilute aangetast. Daarin zie je dus weinig tot geen verschil met een non-dilute.

Dit soort dingen heeft niet met raszuiverheid te maken.
Kleur is ook niet gekoppeld aan karakter.
Wat wel zou kunnen is dat het in een bepaalde lijn vaker voorkomt en dat daar toevallig ook een bepaalde aanleg in zit.
Maar met de kleur op zich heeft zoiets niet te maken, dat is echt een sprookje. "


by ValK on 21 October 2019 - 17:10

Koots
disqualifying colours can be linked to other genetic traits like deafness, etc.

that's interesting. Nikita, mom of my last dog, did deliver in each litter couple "blue" pups.
albeit my wasn't "blue" but after he passed 10 years mark, he didn't become deaf but indeed started to show decline in his hearing. 
curious if that has anything to do with that recessive "blue" gene?

Koots

by Koots on 21 October 2019 - 17:10

Valk - Just a few examples from a brief search:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/201207/your-dog-s-coat-color-predicts-his-hearing-ability

 

Pigment, or lack thereof, can also be linked to certain traits:

https://lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm

Pigment-associated inherited deafness is not restricted to dogs. Similar defects have been reported for mice, mink, pigs, sheep, horses, cattle, cats, ferrets, rabbits, llamas, alpacas, and humans. Deafness in blue-eyed white cats is common, first mentioned in Darwin's Origin of Species. Blue eyes, resulting from an absence of pigment in the iris, is common with pigment-associated deafness but is not, in and of itself, an indication of deafness or the presence of a deafness gene; however, in several breeds (Dalmatian, English Setter, English Cocker Spaniel, Bull Terrier), dogs (and cats) with blue eyes are statistically more likely to be deaf.

 

IMO, the bottom line is that we do not know enough about all breeds genetics to say it's OK to breed a colour that is not accepted within the breed standard.    The OP asked people if they would use a blue Mal for breeding if that dog were great in working abilities.   My answer is that I would not, because there are enough other Mals with great working abilities that are of an 'accepted' colour and are within the breed standard.

by Hired Dog on 21 October 2019 - 17:10

Koots, what Malinois are you speaking of, the KNPV ones, the NVBK ones or the AKC ones?

by Centurian on 21 October 2019 - 18:10

Hired Simple : Those that think that in totality that all [ and only all ] a dog is , ... is it's ability to only so call , work . IMOp a dog is much more than that and what makes a dog is much more and not soley limited to it's ability to work . To me that is akin to saying that a person is only as much a value as and is comprised of , as it's ability to work . I believe a person is made up much more than what it's ability to work alone is. ... And just as dogs , there is a lot more that makes a human , human , than thinking in terms of all that is is good for .. is work .

.... There is much more that constitutes a canine above and beyond ' work ' . IMOp people that think dogs are only worth or valued on the basis of work , synonmous with work , lacks understanding about the canine and moreover that person is missing something very very important about the Human / Canine Relationship. IMOp , like it or not Those People Hired , those people that only look at a dog in terms if it can work and no more or less without considering ALL the ATTRIBUTES of the dog . Your comment makes me think of some of the people I rubbed elbows with : the buy a dog that can perform but if it is not up to ' their ' liking for they can that dog , sell that dog , like a commodity , just so they can put themselves on a pedestal.Those people Hired , those people that see the dog only as 'work'.

by Rik on 21 October 2019 - 18:10

I am not qualified to comment on Mals, I will say that I would never breed a blue GSD, no matter the quality.

And the reason is that I think over the generations behind any breed, breeders had reasons for avoiding certain traits, to include negative characteristics they associated (from experience) with color.

by Hired Dog on 21 October 2019 - 19:10

Cent, first, do not confuse people with dogs. Humans are not dogs and dogs are not humans, so that comparison, to me at least is moot.
Next, having spend 12-15 hours a day with a dog while working, my relationship with it cannot even compare to what a pet owner will ever experience, so, please, do not speak of a relationship that is forged in battle.
I do buy a dog for working purposes, THE highest compliment I can give a dog. I have never been on any pedestal nor have any of my dogs, we dont compete in the sports arena.
I have yet to sell a dog that could not work simply because I choose my dogs carefully which means the dog will be with me until death.
Lastly, please stop the..."there is so much more to the canine". No Cent, its a dog, not a mythical creature.
Koots

by Koots on 21 October 2019 - 20:10

Hired - the genetics of colour inheritance associated with adverse (or bad) genetic traits can apply to all dogs from certain backgrounds that were used to develop certain breeds. If the trait for 'blue' in Malinois is poly-genetic with, for example deafness, ( not saying it is) then a blue dog would also be deaf (again, this is only an example). Therefore, one should not breed a blue Malinois, no matter how good that dog is.

We all agree that certain genetic traits should be avoided at all costs if possible (bad hips/elbows, DM, etc.) and dogs with those traits not be used for breeding. Some colour genes can be linked to undesireable traits, and in some breeds that is why those colours are not acceptable. As Rik said, breeders have observed instances of trait combinations that they wished to avoid, hence the disqualifying traits list in the breed standard.

by Hired Dog on 21 October 2019 - 20:10

Koots, a couple of problems with that. First, as BM has stated and its common knowledge, the Malinois in Holland has many different breeds in it.
Have those breeds been checked for health before they were incorporated into the Malnois...no one really knows.
Second, you will be very surprised how many dogs of the past, great Malinois that achieved all kinds of titles and were never registered, all of a sudden found registration papers because they were bred and people who bought those puppies wanted papers.

If breeders in Holland or Belgium stopped breeding dogs because they were blue or brown or black, what would they breed to compete in their sport?
The mentality is very different in Europe and among those who breed these dogs to compete with and/or work them.
I have a friend who for years has been trying to recreate a dog from the past. He inbreeds, line breeds, colors be damned, to dogs that he feels have the best chance of resurrecting that dog he wants.
Again, its a different mentality, its not good and its not bad, its different.
Now, if anyone wants to talk about breeding dogs and following the standard, please tell me what these so called show dogs breeders are breeding, are those dogs close to any standard that resembles a GSD in any capacity?


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