Dogs that spin vs. Dogs that don't - Page 4

Jeff, if you are talking about my dogs, I don't think you knew the very high drive dogs I was speaking of.  Xinerobella v Tiekerhook for one - extreme, lunatic, manic drive female.  Extremely strong, could not cap her drive - never a spinner.  She could handle her drives and focus, was very clear despite being a maniac :).  This was Eagle's mother.  Bodo v Tiekerhook - extremely strong dog, extreme drives, also extreme aggression - coudln't get  him to look away from the helper for any reason.  Arrow v Zuckerburg, daughter of Xinerobella - extremely serious dog, very high drives - she would back out of the blind on the call-out because she would not take her eyes off the helper even for a  moment.   Eagle himself - a normal-drive dog, very strong in the work also with high drive - but he is very calm in his drives, very clear in the head - he can turn his drive on and off, in general he appears cool and collected - this is the way I like my dogs to be.  On when they are working, off when they are not.  Dogs that can work competitively (which he did) and can come home and live in the house (which he did).  I have had other dogs that are higher drive than Eagle, never quite as high as Xinerobella - who could  handle their drives and had the nerve to be able to focus despite being "amped".  And have known many many many.  The spinners have a screw loose somewhere - and as I have already said - doesnt' mean they  can't work - doesn't mean they aren't nice dogs in temperament otherwise - does mean they have a nerve issue and training doesn't cause it (though training might bring it out, and may make it worse or better), and won't fix it.

molly

Agar I realize the diff, just putting it out there. It's in him to spin when hyped up, why does he not show it when he is amped for the decoy? Like Molly was describing though, Baden doesn't look away from the aggitator unless there are more than one on the field. LOL Oh what fun PSA can be. Just wondering if the spinners are the ones that associate the decoy or work with "fun" or pleasure in some way? I would think a serious dog wouldn't take his eyes off to spin or turn his back, as a serious dog would take a decoy more as a threat than "fun". Who knows? Just blabbering incoherently, maybe it will make more sense tomorrow with more view points and a few hours sleep.

I do have a spinner in my kennel - a female GSD, Schh1, very good solid temperament, I have seen no problem with her nerve strength - when she's working she is 100% focused, intense, aggressive, calm in the grips, shows very good drives (not extreme but "plenty of drive") - she is absolutely correct inthe work.  In the crate she is 100% calm, quiet.  In the kennel she is an idiot if anything at all is stimulating her.  I believe this is learned behavior - she is somewhat bitch-aggressive, though nothing unusual for a dominant adult female - and especially when other dogs are out and she can see them - she goes ballistic, spinning and running in very fast circles that quickly dig a trench in the shavings.  She also shows her frustration by digging all of her water out of  her bucket.  Stimulation/excitement, or nerve issue?    I'd say stimulation/excitement and a learned behavior from being a kennel dog exclusively before I got her - always in a kennel, bored and the spinning behavior was learned.  But, maybe she has a screw loose too - I know her behavior in the kennel is highly irritating.  If she did this when she worked I would not be able to deal with her at all.

molly

For what it's worth... I think people here would be more open-minded if we did not call the spinning a "nerve" issue as people usually think of nervebags then.  I think it is a self-control issue.  Many dogs probably do it when excited or they have too much energy and there really isn't anything wrong with them... but if you put them in a stay or try to teach them not to do it and they still absolutely cannot stop... then maybe they are not capable of handling their own excitement/energy... which is what I think Molly is trying to say she does not like in her dogs.  JMHO.

Folks how many times can Molly tell you.  If your dog is spinning it is not concentrating.  Why is it not concentrating?  Something stimulates it to a point where it looses its focus.  It can't handle the stimulation and thus spins as a show of over stimulation, ergo displacement.

If your dog is spinning when the decoy is backing up, this is once again a displacement.  The decoy backs up to increase the drive and intensity of the dog.  When the dog is at the end of the line and cannot get to the decoy it has options,  It can just continue to sit and bark, lunge at the decoy or sometimes start to spin.  Why spin?  Because it does not have the nerve stability to stay focused on the target at hand.  Some dogs that do this once given the bite are sometimes mouthy or scream in frustration when doing pull backs on a back-tie. 

I think the problem when it comes to describing behaviors we tend to take things personally.  We are talking about the behavior of a dog, not anyones children.  WE ALL sometimes need to get over ourselves!

This is a bit off topic but fits in this section.  The training of schutzhund for sport is just that, for "sport" ie. points.  The training for schutzhund methodology is the training of working dogs.  Drive promotion, grip development, taking of scent and learning to read and evaluate a dog is Schutzhund training.  It cracks me up when personal protection and police dog trainers say schutzhund training is crap.  This lets me know that the person does not know the difference between the sport and the discipline of schutzhund.  Gerald Groos, Berhard Flinks, Horst Deiter Trager, Koos Hassing and Mike Diehl are some well known Police Dog trainers and Officers that know the value and discipline of Schutzhund.

No dog breed has ever been asked to wear as many hats as the German Shepherd Dog.  I can't wait for the AKC to get their hands on the Malinois, lol.

The ignorant will never get it.

Kyle

Good point. Nerve is alot like identifiying different drives. It means different things to different people.

Another is people's experience with various breeds or working venues. I have found people from SCH and people from ring will see and explain the same thing very differently. Goes the same with breeds. When people see a behavior as it pertains to one breed or one sport venue, they come up with a theory as to why they are seeing the behavior. I Sch person with a gsd and a ring person with a Mal that have the exact same behaviour will see it differently. One of the reasons I am a firm believer in cross training, and training with different people.

This thread kind of veered in a different direction to. I think the original question regarded spinning during bite work. I will stand by my opinion that it may be a nerve issue but often not and then we have what some people call nervy, another may call drivey.   Yes there are nervy dogs that do not usually come off the bite and work just fine. You do need a bit of "nerve" to have real aggression.  I will stand by my opinion this is predominatley a GSD thing, is genetic, and just is what it is. (I would be open to changing this veiwpoint if someone can dig up some videos on YOUTube with dogs of other breeds doing excessive spinning during agitation).

One thing that people have said in this thread is the dog having the ability to cap their own drives. That is waaaaay out there to me. Drive is something a dog is born with and maximized by training. It is the trainers job to expound or cap a dogs drive. I think people give a dog way too much credit if they think a dog has the ability to cap his/her own drive. I have seen several super high drive ( and I mean super) french line malinios that were imported with very little training. One would look at these dogs as "not clear in the head" but after good training these dogs were just as controlled and able to think as the next dog. I am a firm believer of no such thing as too much drive. There is such a  thing as a trainer/handler who does not know what to do with all that drive.

I do believe a dog can have drive and/or nerve to the point they are not "clear in the head" which brings me to my last point. What we want/like in a dog often shades our veiwpoint in the behavior we are seeing. I myself like a dog that is super high drive, high energy, and a little nutty or "not totally clear in the head" This is my preference so I guess I see things a little differetly then someone who likes an even keel or "stable" dog. Just because we see things we may not like does not mean it is bad or weak or undesirable in every situation.

I agree that "spinning" may be a form of drive displacement--a nerve issue based on an inability to focus and cap drive. However, I hate the shit of constantly building dirive--that is, loading the damned dog--especially, using the freaking whip to make the dog even more hectic. No need for this in a really good dog.

Look--I (as neither an expert nor an idiot) have show lines (Molly has seen one of my boys and has bred to him) and have no need to apologize for them nor to make excuses for them (as "lower life forms"). It feels great to leave the field and hear spectators saying "now, there was a really clear-headed dog!" 

Yep, as Jeff (it's good to see you talking dogs and containing your own drive--instead of spewing nonsense out of frustration, BTW) says--don't reward the damned dog for spinning--only for focused attention. Only focus and obedience should ever bring the reward, IMO.

I agree that the helper/trainer "amping" the dog - using the whip etc can cause the dog's spinning behavior to get worse - and rewarding it with bite can make the behavior stick - but the behavior is there in the first place, it is not "caused" by training.  It is caused by a nerve issue that is inside the dog, that causes him to get into a level of drive that his nerve can't handle.  It can be made worse by hectic helperwork/training - can be made better by calm focused training and timely rewards - but it can't be fixed.

Jeff, no I didn't mean dogs going behind the helper - circling behind the helper IMO is the same as leaving the helper.  This IMO is an avoidance behavior - definately not a strong dog and also a focus problem, perhaps a drive problem as well but as I said before - I have never seen a spinner who failed to engage, who didn't bite or came off the bite - the spinners are very excited and they are "there", ready for the grip - over-excited and the drive-level high, they just spin because they cant' control themselves.  Dogs that leave the helper or go around behind the helper - now we're talking bad nerves, soft dog, low drive - OR bad training as I've seen dogs do that to avoid the handler approaching - could be an entirely different thread for that.

molly