Active helper versus passive helper - Page 2

Duke - yes you can modify the reactions of the dog through training, and working with the innate drives of the dog, even if it seems to be "stuck". It takes time though, sometimes more time than people are willing to put into the dog if they are not patient. It also takes proper drives, obviously if the dog does not have it then you cannot 'create' it.

I saw a good example of this when training with a new police K9. This dog had nice prey drive, good nerve, but was bite trained what I called the "quick and nasty" way. This dog focused everything into the sleeve, so much so that after the first bite I gave him, I slipped the sleeve (dog was backtied with handler beside him) and the dog was killing the sleeve. I walked behind the dog and lifted him up by the tail, which only made him want to kill the sleeve more. The sleeve was this dog's "safe zone", to the exclusion of any other "threat" around him. We taught the dog, through re-training and multiple-sleeve work, to realize that the fight came from the man, not the inanimate sleeve. This dog had good fight drive, so it was not too hard to get him to re-focus on the man and get him to realize it was the man who was the source of his fight. It just took some time, thought, and use of the dog's innate drives to turn him around and make him suitable as a K9.

Koots, I guess this dog ( sleeve oriented, focussed on the sleeve ) did not need a "wake up call", and that´s what Duke complains about.
A trained dog ( not screwed up ) should be eager to work, just because it´s fun, not because the helper is dancing for him....
In case you have to animate a trained dog "something was left behind at the vet" - genetics?
I think so.

nice pup koots, but actually what I mean is a 18 or 20 months dog that is having a soft or weak grip on the sleeve when not "jacked up " before helper work, or in one case a dog didnot even bite when not activated first
I have clear opinion myself en even you (koots) write ...it also takes proper drives, that is where I am mainly

also if you have a dog that is willing to attack and/or kill the still sleeve I would say that dog is opposite of what im talking about

Nature or nurture...

I think that you can create the condition that the dog waits for the helper to initiate, especially if that dog is not very high drive and it's foundation training exacerbated this.

IF the dog has the drive (type and level) it shouldn't be too hard to modify it's behaviour.   If the dog does not have the proper drives then you can only do so much with him/her.    

 

With my dog, the last thing I would want to do before entering the trial field for phase 'C' is to "amp him up" as it may make it more difficult for the control portion of the exercises - he does not need any 'working up'.

Duke - what did you see in this dog, it's drives for you to be interested in it. Did you get this dog as a green dog to resell?
 

these are dogs offered to me so I work them, my way of working is passive so its not fair to expect dogs to change in a second, but im not looking for long time projects, but see more and more of those, so can be more of genetic issues or more of same trainingissues

Not sure how passive helper can stimulate a well socialised green dog to work unless the dog is a nervebag fearful nut job with mental problems.

Why should a sane green dog go into drive because someone is standing near it passively?

I don´t believe in training issues - any good dog, no matter if he was trained with a whip or not, will ask for bitework = act, not react in a classic training scene ( sleeve, pants ).
A "trained" dog ( used to helper and sleeve ) that needs a "wake up call" lacks genetics in my opinion.

The only exception: no trigger ( like a sleeve ) for a mainly prey trained dog - this dog will need to learn new stuff...but a good dog should learn fast.

Not "green", VK, "foundation trained" - in my world that means "used to bite a sleeve" ( or hidden sleeve ).
Think about your dog - do you need to wake him up in case there is a decoy standing in front of him wearing a sleeve / hidden sleeve?

Edit: This is the main problem we face in training / titling: Some dogs will work and title, but only after "waking them up" prior to the trial - doesn´t make sense/lack of genetics.

VK has asked helpers to NOT use the whip, as his dog doesn't need it to engage as he reports.

Duke - when you say your way of working these dogs is passive, can you please elaborate. Are you wearing a sleeve and scratch pants/apron? Is the dog back-tied or held by another person (handler, owner, your help)? What is the set-up scenario? Are you approaching from a hidden spot (blind, building, etc.), and what body language are you using?

simple, owner holds dog, I approach with sleeve and tap on the sleeve with whip,

here is example https://youtu.be/OHFs3jrzjuU