German shepherd in KNPV - Page 9

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by duke1965 on 01 June 2019 - 16:06

that dog doesnot over exite me as well Valk, I had a Ankara son, out of a Tom Zps son myself, gave him away to a pet home, names on paper dont mean nothing,

but than again, what is one looking for, and think he is suitable for multiple purposes

I used to breed old lines mostly, but when small amount of left over dogs cannot provide what I am looking for, I have to change the program, and since I am setting up large breedingprogram to provide for LE mostly, I need to find qualities where they are, without looking at names on paper Shades Smile

by xPyrotechnic on 01 June 2019 - 18:06

I thank you guys for this very interesting debate thingy whatever this is called i have learnt a lot. I agree with centurion as well obedience needs to be mastered before the dog is taught sleeve work and during sleeve work the dog must be able to be obedient to the handler otherwise there would be complications. However, the Chris z Hane dog i thought him to be a good dog for LE, he showed the fight drive and some aggression not overly aggressive i can't really tell if he has strong nerves but if you could educate me as to why this dog is decent that would be perfect and what would a excellent dog for LE be like.

by duke1965 on 01 June 2019 - 19:06

the main mistake made by most is to look at the males and not talk about the females first

females are most important

next is to find the male that matches best with that female

these two steps are ignored by most, so I look at the female first to determine which male is best match and therefore suitable to produce what I am looking for

no points, fame, podium or names on pedigree will ever help anybody to breed quality, it will help to sell the pups however Wink Smile and that seems to be of great importance for most

by ValK on 01 June 2019 - 19:06

xPyrotechnic

that's not fight. he is playing.

arra

by arra on 01 June 2019 - 20:06

as a breeder you have different females and you select a match to certain female. I would choose this Chris z Hane for my breeding program. He is a well balanced clear headed dog and will produce well with the right female. For me it is not just looking at one video and that "tells it all"! I saw many good video's of many dogs but then when I actually went there and see and meet them in person I was disappointed.
Valk I know where you come from and what type of dog you admire but times change, people and their needs change. Even police they want social dogs, easy to adjust for new handler, high ball driven dogs with good nerves.

by duke1965 on 02 June 2019 - 05:06

Arra, can agree to a point, but every decent male will produce well with the right female, thats why I write its all about having the right females to begin with.

the general idea to have a pup from ANY male, without paying attention to the female you are going to get the pup from, is one of the reasons we are where we are now, as in general quality

 

by Juno on 02 June 2019 - 10:06

Centurian,

I always enjoy reading your detailed posts. Yes, I do have a fantastic young dog, and yes I had to bounce him off several trainers - from one extreme to another (personal protection to sports) and it never really phased him. Also used several decoys - different race and sex. All of them learned that it is best to wear a suit rather than a sleeve with him as he loves to target the upper body or the face - I posted a video of that earlier in a different thread. The female decoy was lucky to have a torn t shirt as I held back in time. Also when we did send him on a chase he would run and then leap to hit the decoy on his upper body so targeting was an issue as he was going for unprotected areas of the decoy. The issue with “aus” remained - inconsistent. Sometimes great sometimes not so. Will post another short video a little later to show what I am talking about. Thanks for your post.

by Centurian on 02 June 2019 - 19:06

A little off topic .... Targeting . So think ... when two dogs fight where does the strongest dog try to bite the other dog ? When a wild animal kills where do they target : " The Neck for the kill" . Some decoys do not know how to teach targeting to a dog. I really don't prefer to come across in posts as critical or arrogant but I am simply stating the truth. How I learned ... by doing building searches with state police dogs on a 90 degree day wearing a pair of jeans , tank top and only a Sch sleeve. That taught us to make sure we targeted correctly or else we would pay the price for our mistakes. One time 5 years ago I was at a Mondio Ring club with my GS .. The Director was quite renowned. Some people came from out of state and one fellow decided after he taught his dogs leg bites to do inner upper arm bites. He had a hard time getting his dog to want to do this. I told him to call me and he did. I told him as he had done sports for over a decade: Scott ,If you want to teach this to the dog , then the dog must become motivated to do this , become successful doing this , feel as though he reached his goal and feel safe and secure with eveything about this. You canot from here on in , in this new learnng phase ever ever allow your dog to bite anywhere else but the upper inner arm . Set the dog up to be successful - Place the dog up on a table [ this is not in the definition of the technique of table training, as it was to get the dog close to the upper inner arm ]. Present the upper inner arm , give the dog a bite , slip the jacket and let the dog run around the field. etc etc. I wrote this not just a commentary by what I thiught about reading Juno's last post. But APPLE touched upon something nthat I have been pre4aching for 30 years. He alluded to the fact thatn the dogs go through different emotional states in prey as well as defense. Every new person should re read his post- apple is very very well versed. So in teaching the upper inner arm bite we have to address the emotional state and the motivations of the dog to establish a new behavior. Dogs have preferences as to where they prefer to bite ! If we do not address those facors we make it more difficult to change their preferences at times. Why the running around. this is something Rings sport people used to chuckle qbout when I did htis with my GSs. Not just because learned this 30n+ years ago on Sch , but many do not understand the reason for this . In short as Apple wrote : the emotinal states of the dog changes. Running around with the bite jacket helps create the physiological state , the emotional state that I want the dog to be in . This helps reduce the dog's stress and gives the dog , in a manner of speaking , ' to Re- Set ' . Even in positive learning , or when it is fun to learn - there is stress associated with the learning.  Last comment ; when we teach dogs , there has to be a systematic , step by step continuity and the progression for the dog . Teaching is not about a dog learning exercises but about concepts and  behaviors .   Apples comment is very very important much more so than trying to peg something as to whether the dog is in prey or defense, if defense is better then prey and vice a verse. . 


by ValK on 02 June 2019 - 22:06

arra, i guess you're right. times has changed and so the people.
of course the breeder is one, who make the call. but 'cmon, in overall picture of commercial breeding, where seems everyone participate with sole purpose to cash on the hyped, never maturing, sporty pet trend - do you really wanna be one of them, with identical, predictably boring, featureless, indistinguishable dogs?

by Gustav on 03 June 2019 - 10:06

As I read these nuanced posts about the emotional, physiological, states of prey, defense, and different variants of stress, and different learning phases, and the innumerable interactions and degrees of these things, within individual dogs, and how various training modules, and continuity affect and alter these aspects.....and the novice or newby thinks; but I have read that this training is really simple, and some just want to make it complicated.....haha....I must say I’m confused( Nah, not really ), but I sure see how without practical application and experiences, most novices don’t have a clue of understanding a lot of this when it is before their eyes with their dog or just watching from sideline.
But then again, maybe I’m wrong and this is really quite simple!😊


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