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by apple on 31 May 2019 - 18:05

Totally different than the dogs Valk's video showed.

by duke1965 on 31 May 2019 - 18:05

see lots of prey, no fight at all, looking at trained behaviour versus natural behaviour in the other clip

title , civil biting, is misleading, have serious doubt as to actual strength and courage of the dog, also grips are not looking to be all that

nice sportdog

by K9L1 on 31 May 2019 - 18:05

Duke can you post a vid to support what you would prefer?

by duke1965 on 31 May 2019 - 19:05

no previous training, first time in a muzzle


good balance prey/posession/civil


first one is policedog USA now, second is policedog Australia now

by duke1965 on 31 May 2019 - 19:05

when I first posted that first video, someone asked, but where is the reward for the dog, that was great and important question, because its genetic/natural behaviour, and it doesnot require training and/or reward to maintain for the rest of the dogs life

by K9L1 on 31 May 2019 - 19:05

two nice dogs by duke as well.

by ValK on 31 May 2019 - 21:05

apple, we are definitely come from different worlds.
but you see, unlike you, i have experience and knowledge about preferences in breeding and works GSDs in former eastern school.
after becoming familiar with western and comparing both, i found that eastern, albeit being considered as cruel and barbaric, indeed used to be more advanced and efficient in respect of practical utilization of GSD breed. eastern school foundation was based more on experience and knowledge collected during a history of usage of that breed in real life applications.
sadly western school accepted guidance of commercial trends and institutions like PETA, who have nothing in common with breed itself.

emorig, we actually didn't have needs for that test. when you work the dog from the age 5-6 weeks, you already know how that dog will perform that test when time will come.
the folk from border kennel did that.

b.t.w. i forgot to mention that prior that test dogs must be deprived of food and be really very hungry. from border they always did gave to us few days in advance notice.

by duke1965 on 01 June 2019 - 04:06

I think it is very important to realize that different goals or jobs, require different type of dog, I would take a different balanced dog for crowdcontrol than for sport, a different one for Personal protection than for police on the street

to compare old borderpatrol material to a high drive sportdog today is stupid

which one is better is solely depending on the question,, for what purpose ??

problem however is that many people think that todays prey/sport dog is suitable for all, because they do "bite " on command

I had some flabbergasting discussions with some (famous) breeders and trainers the last weeks about this and it doesnot make me look any more positive to the future

by ValK on 01 June 2019 - 15:06

that's true duke. but try to tell it to breeders, whose objective is to produce "jack of all trades" or as they promote it "diverse dog".

b.t.w. i also about week ago did have conversation with respected by me breeder, who plan to use that dog in breeding.
well, after seeing video, i wasn't impressed by dog at all. obvious "nice doggy" type. could do well either as pet or sport entertainer. with an equal type dame, odds for serious dogs among his progeny nearing 0.
but that is what mass consumers used to and demand.

by Centurian on 01 June 2019 - 16:06

Duke .. again , you have written some very nice , accurate and informative posts .

For years , and I don't know why, but I still see to this day , people do not understand that not everything in the dog world is boiler plate. I have taught other people that trained canines with me about the different facets of aggression . Yes , Duke is right- there are different kinds of aggression , and those different kinds of aggression differ in the amount [ quantity ] and the quality . I write this so many times but many people cannot fathom this ... what is so hard about understanding all this ?

To new people : compare the these situations of a man hitting someone in the face simply because you looked at him , with these three different results :

A man simply hitting some one because someone hit him . A man hitting some one in the face and breaking his nose just because someoine looked at him . A man hitting someone in the face beacuse some one stole his parking spoace and there after beating him up so bad that he leaves the man in a pool of blood dead. So .. is it so difficult to evaluate the differences ? . The head , the mindset , the genetic make up , of the man is different in each of those scenarios. The actions , the aggression , differ in kind , intentisy , amount , quanttity as well as the quality .
From those three examples : If you needed a body guard or a trained assassin , who would you pick ? If you were a woman seeking a husband , who would you pick ? Translate this to canines : if you wanted Sport , LE , Personal Proterction , Home Companion , Search and Rescue .. which or what kind of dog would you pick ... If you choose , always keep in mind different aggressions [ for only 1 trait of the many traits when we look at the dogs the different temperaments that result in different types/kinds of aggression with different intensities and qualities .

Duke is right , to compare apples to oranges as far as canines goes , is a fruitless dailogue.

To Juno : Juno I believe that you are much to hard on yourself. The dog that you have is an extraordinaily gifted dog. People that have not followed your saga should know that you personally gave all that you could to your dog. How can I liken this : you cannot just have any soldier to teach and train a navy seal capable person to be a Navy Seal / or Special Ops. I want people to understand : IMOp [ and I can base this on the videso that you made public on the PDB ] that the people that you worked with let you dow [ for one reason or another] . They were supposed to know what they are doing with your dog. IMOp , your dog was advanced forward to stages when he was not ready , not at all ready .

I had a friend in our club , he had a mali that bit with a vengence . He did fantastice leg and thigh bite- he wanted to teach the dog arm bites , and at this point the dog started to bite the arms in targeting . My friend was an officer and wanted to use this dog as police K9 . I worked this dog for him . I told him contrary to the other decoys , some which were our friends and also officers , that " this dog is not ready for upper arm bites" " don't progess to tfast with those arm bites . Let me help you " ... . The other officers had their click and they trained the hardest k9's you would ever see, hard core tactical killer mals. . A month later the Belgium Decoys and their Judge , came over to train with us , they saw his dog and said the same exact thing that I tried to tell him about the dog , and the dog's bites , the weakenss -the whole nine yards . Our fellow police officers , brain washed my friend with his Mal . My young officer friend did not listen to me. I showed him that when the dog bit low he looked strong but when he went up high on the body I saw a little weakness. I showed him how the dog was weak .

Two points : related to the previous paragraph - the aggression was qualitatively different , subltely different , but none the less different. So , I shut up , they pushed this dog , I could not sway my friend , ... the result :They pushed this dog through the academy then on the street this dog faulted and he had to give the dog up . Why .. to Much to Fast.

Juno , IMOp , again my biased view : one step in teaching anything in life depends on mastering all the previous steps first . Juno , I would never ever ever let your dog go on to other steps, things, until that dog reasonably , reliably , immediately and 'calmly ** ' outing on your signal. Pet peeves that I have no matter what the endeavor , is to see the dog work calmly , non hecticly , franticly with immediate response . Obedience is not only about performance , ' do what I say' . All working dogs MUST be Obedient. However , a working dog in any endeavor , has to have the correct the ATTITUDE . Attitude and the emotional state of the dog too plays a very very important role . So biting and outing IMOP is not only about the dog following orders but also how and why that dog will out for me. For example , I want the dog to bite with confidence , assuredness , with poise- the correct mental and emotional state. Even with dogs that are biting machines , I pay attention to this. I expect .. I emphasize the word expect , that when a dog for example hears the word 'out' , whether on a sleeve , or alerting , any behavior the dog turns on [ his instincts , impulses ] he willingly ,gladly [ meaning the dog also wants to do this or trusts my judgement] as well as immediately ceases when cued . This is why when the dog has learned an out , I teach the dog if the decoy, helper assailant is still moving when it hears 'out that he still has to out. If someone is threatening , early in t he dog's development I teach even at that, if I say out , the dog must out.

Juno , a dog can be civil... and very civil dogs are very very good to have also .. but with poor helper work great civil dogs , like any other dog can be ruined too .

I remember I told you to first let the dog chase people down . Because I wanted your dog to have a mind set : there is something that I percieve as a threat, a chased that man away . ' Boy , can I conrol the situation and I'm in control and safe'. Could he have handled the situation differently and succeded if confronted, most likely , perhaps yes. But... this dog was not ready for threatening confrontation early on IMOPp.! Besides if I was not correct in my assessment , chasing the man would cause no psychological damage to the dog. It could only keep him in a good emotional state. Later when his internal state is set right , you could in time close the distance and start pressuring the dog lightly at first. In the meantime you would have had pehaps the out down better , the on /off exer ises down . Why because the dog already was very confident that he could chase someone away by barking , therefore when you asked him to turn off , he would mor e eaily be able to attain a better emotional state once when a helper takes two steps back just as you or prior to you asking the dog to 'turn off ', sit at heel still. The dog would feel in control .. you could transfer this notion to a quick non threatening bite , out the dog holding the leash tight and have the helper flee back when the dog outed. Again placing the dog into a better emotional state. When the dog is in a better emotional state and bite calmly and outs immediately the caould at that point be given another bite immediately after outing. So you tell civil dogs how ,when where and why to control a man and they cannot do that as they should if they are in thw wrong emotional state, or have the wrong thoughts and feelings. If a civil dog cannot reset and always feel that there is a threat or it is threatened it will always have the tendency to bite. Same with a dog that is possissive. In short you have to get the dog into the emotional and a state and a state of mind ' that giving something up is not losing what you but rather a way to gain " ..

Now a civil dog that one cannot work through these glitches. A dog that will literally never come off a bite [ or control it's impulses ] and will thirst for blood no matter what , and I have seen and worked these dogs.. one better unbderstand about Aggression all it's origins and aspects.. that is all that I will say .. ... except ..Juno don't be hard on yourslef..

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