I think treat training is cruel. - Page 21

I initially started reading this forum a bit over a year ago.

I thought I had found a place with people of high dog knowledge, where people are exchanging info and experience about dogs, about teaching dogs, about breeding and about dog sports.

Nothing can be further from the truth I’m sorry to say.

I can’t believe some of these comments here on this thread, from the start.

There is a fraction of people here that are stuck in some kind of time warp.  They live in a time warp of training knowledge and a time warp in pining after a supposed long-lost dog type. 

Unfortunately, I only see belittling attitudes of any teaching methods that they don’t know about....or perhaps know about, but are unsure of. They do this to keep their own ego intact...instead of trying to actually learn something new.

If you people, and you know who you are, are happy with your training methods, then just stop reading. But don’t ridicule other people and their teaching practices, and others that are trying to implement a more structured system of learning for the dogs.

There are so many ASTONISHINGLY INCORRECT remarks on the thread, from people that I really thought would know better....That I am at a loss for words.

And then to accuse someone training a service dog with a method that has been used for at least 25 years and that is proven beyond doubt to work, and to work quickly, that they have “surely” already taught the dog this before shooting the video, is beyond words.

I call all of you out there hiding behind keyboards, to post at least a 1 minute video of your training, in a non-cut version....explain EXACTLY why and what you are doing in the video. Then let the rest of us tear that apart instead of  encouraging the person, or giving tips and ideas respectfully, or asking „ real questions“  if you don‘t know something. And, while at it...maybe some videos of you same people teaching dogs things for “daily life”...too. Walking in a downtown area, walking through Home Depot at  heel, sitting nicely in an outdoor restaurant. Not ONLY sport, agitation and bitework (eventhough I enjoy those too).

YES, you can teach a dog a complicated behavior very quickly with marker training. That video from BE was in realtime, no cuts. That is the WHOLE POINT of it! With NO negative stress for the dog. And it takes  only mere minutes to do. Teaching heeling with marker training, take a fraction of time as with other methods, and the dog is not confused when you change your movement up on him.

I, and a lot of other people on the forum, know how marker training works and use it daily. (clicker training is the same principle)

And as for other people’s sarcasm, yes, it does help other people to have labels for things. It does help to call thing what they are. It does help to have a plan and know what you are doing, within the system. It helps to be on the same page and using the same definitions. It helps you understand your tools and their effects and communicate them clearly.

There are many roads to Rome, some are just faster and better.

One very well known  person in the dog world for decades, I don’t quite remember who....said this, paraphrased (about marker training): “The only regret I have is to the all dogs I’ve trained in the past, without the knowledge I have today. To those dogs, I want to give my heart felt apologies...I wish I could do it again with them.....I just did not know better.”

We should all be learning and encouraging each other. Not closing our minds to other ideas.


 

Barefangs:"Petting is just not enough when you are training something like a Service Dog. It just is not. "
Prager.it is a legitimate method to train this with treats. Just please read my OP and see why it works. Also, this is an advanced stuff. What I am talking about mainly is basic obedience which should not be just teaching commands but also to build a relationship.

Jesse

barefangs: "There are people out there that want to ban Service Dogs alltogether and calling treat training cruel plays right into those pockets."

Prager Hans: with this, I am with you 10 000%. Please understand that I am only showing that there cannot be + without - somewhere. That is a fact. Fact of life.
Now if ARs are going to exploit this 1000s of years old philosophical concept, then we have a different problem.
My point is that I am sick of people telling me that chocker or pinch are cruel and sh1t about modern + only methods. There is no such thing. I was just trying to make a point that if one wants to look at it that way then yes all life is cruel. Look at lion killing antelope. Is that cruel to the antelope it is but to the liens it is not. I hope that people here see my point.
I was showing that you can find negative everywhere because that is how life is. You absolutely can not have positive without negative.Or in other words you can not have a beautiful lion without dead antelope. If one denies that then that is why we have these snowflakes who are taught that there is life possible without negative. This is such a horse puckey which is destroying our country. And it applies to training as well.

Being that I just got called out for my " sarcastic" comment about premack principle, let me let y'all see why I said what I did.
Here is the wiki definition: The Premack principle was derived from a study of Cebus monkeys by Professor David Premack, but it has explanatory and predictive power when applied to humans, and it has been used by therapists practicing applied behavior analysis. Premack's principle suggests that if a person wants to perform a given activity, the person will perform a less desirable activity to get at the more desirable activity; that is, activities may themselves be reinforcers. An individual will be more motivated to perform a particular activity if he knows that he will partake in a more desirable activity as a consequence. Stated objectively, if high-probability behaviors (more desirable behaviors) are made contingent upon lower-probability behaviors (less desirable behaviors), then the lower-probability behaviors are more likely to occur. More desirable behaviors are those that individuals spend more time doing if permitted; less desirable behaviors are those that individuals spend less time doing when free to act.



Ok. Now this is my explanation of how I train what they are describing:

I am teaching my dog to " look at me" on command; take pup to the door to go outside. Per usual routine, the pup sits at the door and waits for me to open it. I let him sit looking at the doorknob, but I don't open it till the pup finally looks at my eyes like " hey, ya gonna open it, or what?"

The instant the pup looks at my eyes I open the door and let him out. Takes usually one minute tops for the whole thing.
Next time I go to put him out, same thing, but this time it's only a moment of the door not opening till the pup looks up at me...door opens, pup goes out.
Next time, I take him to the door, he sits and I immediately say look at me the instant the pup looks at my eyes....door opens, pup goes out.
Every day, same thing. Only takes a couple days and now when ever i have the pup on lead, working him, before we can advance forward, I say, look at me. Bam! He does it and it works for anything the pup wants....ball thown, door opened, food dish set in front of him, bite on the tug....

Whole lot easier to say, "wait till he looks up at you before you give him what he wants, then add the command, look at me".....rather than that convoluted definition from some guy's name....
I'll call mine ;
" The Ronalder Principle of Inevidabiltiy." = wait till he looks at you before you give him what he wants...principle can be applied for other behaviors...like : wait till the pup lays down before you open your hand with the kibble.

Using complex definitions only makes training more complex than it really is. Does not help anyone trying to learn how to train.
My point is that, for six decades I trained a whole bunch animals for some very complex behaviors and never in my life needed a label for what I was doing.

You have totally shifted from your original point that "treat training is cruel" and either have a problem with reading comprehension or just are willing to absorb certain bits of information that you want to hear. The whole point is that using food is a very valuable tool, it doesn't interfere with your relationship with your dog because there are so many other aspects of owning/training a dog that contributes to building the relationship with one's dog, and many people who value the use of food and toys have commented that they are not positive only trainers. If a dog has high food and/or high prey drive, you take advantage of those drives. Along with that approach, a high drive dog is absolutely going to need some corrections. It is analogous to someone going to work for a pat on the back and saying, "good job" vs. getting paid. Then there is learning vs. disobedience. The difference is that the handler/owner of the dog is more than a boss and the dog is valued on a more emotional level than the employee/employer relationship, as well as the dog valuing his handler if he is treated well. That doesn't mean no corrections or nothing negative. Bite work in itself will initially cause stress to a dog worth his salt unless the dog only sees the bite work as a game. I don't believe anyone has said that correction collars are cruel and no one said anything about positive only methods. And I don't see what has been discussed having anything to do with snowflakes or the state of the nation.

Joanro,
As JJ pointed out there is value to clearly defining terms not just for a particular handler, but also so proven approaches can be taught to people in a consistent way.

Jesse, with that statement you assume, you are 100% correct and other people are not, bold statement to make, furthermore, on a forum, you will get different opinions and points of view, that is normal, its called discussion, maybe you prefer a place where one person can tell everybody how it is, no discussion possible

you ask for vids, here is one I trained and titled from nothing to ipo 3 several years back, 

https://youtu.be/Hw_FtOKSO5g

 

Apple, yes, but proven by whom?

I am a proponent of KISS.....Keep It Simple Stupid!

Going into psychology explanations that are fine for someone who needs to impress with deep complex descriptions of something that is actually very simple, is over kill.

A friend of mine once told me that he used to watch Hanrahan track his dog....my friend admitted he didn't know the labels for the training process, but if Hanrahan scratched his nose before his dog took a corner, my friend would scratch his nose when his own dog got to a corner, etc....he said he copied everything Hanrahan did....and never used a lable for any of it. He learned to track and title his dogs without a single lable.

Watching ( really watching, not talking and yammering) and learning from someone is a lot more effective than trying to digest a bunch of over exaggerated descriptions of a simple process.

That's my opinion.

If some one is sarcastic who has never accomplished anything in their life, then they deserve critisism. But people such a Duke and myself who have done a thing or two, can be sarcastic when sarcasm is called for.
Ever go to a training seminar and not heard a sarcastic remark coming from the instructor to make his point?

The best way to get a relationship with your dog, is to actually spend time with them.


As for shaping. It's easy to shape a new behavior, the hardest part is the generalization of a new behavior. We all know dogs do not generalize well and that's where all the repetition comes in. You can use a little NePoPo once the dog understands and get reliability but overall, people do not spend enough time on a behavior to generalize it to the point where the behavior itself becomes rewarding.

That's why people are so scared to be stuck on food or tools for the rest of their lives but the reason they are stuck is not because of the training method. It's because they don't know how to generalize their training and get to a point, where the interaction, and the behavior itself becomes rewarding.

Unfortunately, there is no magic wand. Unfortunately we can't train dogs over night. Sure we could use a shitload of compulsion but what would that do to our relationship?

I don't think anyone can say that I don't have a good relationship with my dogs.... if there is one thing I've got, it's exactly that, a super super relationship with my dogs and mutual respect built out of the sheer amount of time we spend with each other as well as using all four quadrants, FAIRLY!