Serious obedience question - Page 4

One thing, and it may sound really sappy ESPECIALLY coming from me, but I have found it to be painfully true:    What I know is dogs are expert top of the ladder masters at reading us and our emotions, we cannot EVER hide them from our dogs, try as we may.  On top of that, as far as our dogs are concerned, their sun rises and sets in us.  So......if we think something is a chore and a drag,  then so does our dog and they will show it loud and clear.

I always found OB to be a real drag, but what I didn't really get was that  it was one of those damned self fulfilling prophesies.  When I figured this out, I had to find ways to make OB a joy and a challenge for myself, and when I did, the change in my dog was remarkable.

I rarely go more than a few feet before I spin around, tease the dog with the ball, maybe play a little tug, maybe just rev him up by spinning the ball around on the string, then I spin back next to him and continue making forward heeling.  Stuff like that.  I like to turn it all into something kind of fun and a challenge for me and for him, with a lot of encouragement and animation.  Of course I always throw in practising as I would do in a trial, but really, not all that often.  I don't hardly ever make my dog do the whole pattern all in the order without breaking it up because that takes a lot of concentration and I don't want that to be boring and old hat for the dog.

I do demand straight sits, etc.. For example, once the dog absolutely understands that he will not be rewarded and may be corrected if n not in 100% correct position every single time, you will be amazed at how quickly he starts always being correct.  It's a matter of a solid  foundation for that stuff.  Once you have that down, it gets much gooder! 

Xeph

Your face tells the story that you do not engoy what you are doing, i think if you can relax a bit and smile you will enjoy working on OB just like your dog does, He is doing his best to please you that is there to see, but firm strong corrections with the voice will make it easier for both of you, if he does something he should not

a little at a time, nothing is on a time limit with that Sport, and nothing is in the way of you taking the BH, just pratice a little and try and enjoy it

It is a big accomplishment to get a Dog heeling correctly and sitting and downing on command and if you get him to do that , you will certainly look at OB in a different way

Steve

Steve, you are right in part.

That face however isn't one of broedom...it's stress.  I worry about what my dog will or won't do that day, and I end up becoming very serious.  This is also in part because if I get all "WHOO!" my dog doesn't settle at all and acts like a twit.  I'm having a very difficult time finding balance in my facial and verbal expressions, because it's either too much or not enough.

I think the best thing about his obedience work is his drop on recall.  He always comes in quickly and he responds immediately to the command.  And we've finally gotten to the point where he doesn't bark as he lays down.

In group sessions I'm VERY happy about what my dog is doing, but when the dog and I are alone, I struggle with keeping myself interested.  Maybe it's more exciting in groups because I get to show off how well my dog is doing (aka, I'm vain and my ego lies in how my dogs impress people :-p).  I mean, I certainly don't get mad at the dog if he makes a mistake (it's usually my fault for miscuing anyway), but I know I try harder when there are people watching than when I'm by myself.

You've all made some good points, and it's appreciated.

 Xeph

I read most of the responses and I think everyone sounds like they are on the same page, as far as the toy goes. A ball on a string is a wonderful tool to use. I first start of with food to teach what ever I am teaching at that time, whether it be a sit, down or heal. Then I transition into a ball or tug. I seams to build both drives. I have a 9 month old male right now that I am training, as a matter of fact I just started training him on OB three weeks ago. I did do the imprinting when he was a pup then I just let him be a dog for 7 months. The first thing that I do is teach the sit, down and focus before I teach any kind of healing. As far as the routine is concerned, I don't teach the dog it at all. If you train your dog right, to do what you say when you say it your dog will have no problem getting the BH. You on the other hand need to study it. How I do it is walk out the routine by my self with out the dog distracting me and I do it over and over till I know it. Always remember that this sport is designed to be fun, something to do with our family and friends. It also helps the bond between us and our dogs. As long as you are having fun, your dog will sense that and produce the results that you are looking for. In my opinion Schutzhund is the best sport for a german shepherd because it combines all elements of training. As for your original question what motivates me to do the OB work is seeing my dog progress every day,  seeing him enjoy the exercises trying to please me and, to get that feeling of happiness and relief when he finally understands what I am trying to teach him 

Hope it helps

Justin 

Over time I've become more fond of obedience.  I used to find it rather boring too.  :)

I far prefer Schutzhund Obedience to AKC obedience.  I will never get very far in AKC obedience because of it! 

Xeph

Try and relax, I can tell you now and i really believe this and i have done so all my life which is a fairly long one up to now

Whatever i have done in my sports i have done for me, I did not ever want to impress or prove it to anyone else, I only had to prove the point to myself

 I have to differ a little from the above, in my Karate days my Master, i did want to make him happy for all the work he put in and it told in the end, I got injured and it finished my sport in that,

He died four months after i finished, knowing i could never really compete again at the level i did, i think it broke his heart

And so it is the same with the Dogs i only want to prove to myself of what i am capable of doing,

  I have nothing to prove to anyone else

The thing is that if you are up tight or stressed the Dog will pick it up, if you relax and act happy the Dog will pick it up and react the same way

If i meet you with a long face and scowling then you will say he is a misarable old Fellow or words to that nature and you will react the same towards me,

But if i meet you with a smile and a light attitude you will respond the same way

Good Luck

Steve

Personally I cannot see why anyone can prefer the obedience of one sport to another, obedience is obedience.  What exercises you are training for and how they are judged is immaterial in my view.

Nothing is boring unless you make it so, I do think dogs get bored if all trainers do is train the specific exercises in their discipline without variation or variable rewards.

Just because x is not required in a routine does not mean you cannot or should not train it.

But one thing is for sure, if you do not enjoy stuff, your dog will not either.  My dog loves all the phases of schutzhund as do I.

I think what you may mean is that you are happy to settle for a qualification rather than excellence, that is to do with inner drive........... of the owner.

Xeph, I was watching your videos, and actual I think you enjoy it more then you want to believe. To me it seems that the true culprit here is your team work with Strauss. He looks like he can do everything you are asking him to do, but he is goofing around, and that frustrates you. Strauss is rewarding himself instantly for things he does and is only partial focused on you.

If you have a hard time not being able to say "good boy" (or so), try some Rally for a while. Advanced and Excellent Rally can be challenging enough to keep things interesting, and the courses always change. This would keep Strauss' focus more on you as he can not expect the next exercise, and has to listen to you. For you it could be more relaxing too, as you can talk to him at all times.

Back to the heeling. Exact and flashy heeling can be very enjoyable. It is like dancing with your dog once you are one unit, one team. You dont have to follow the exact heeling pattern requested for the BH or CD. You can do many turns, about turns, circle left or right. I often do dressage patterns for horses in a tighter format...lol

Strauss seems to have good ball drive, but you say you dont like the ball. Is he crazy about food? I teached my boy heeling with a chicken bone, he was nuts for that, more then cheese or other stuff. Find something that will asure you his absolute attention, and make the training more fun. Then you too will enjoy the obedience work more.

You train the heeling pattern for the BH without the dog until you can do it in your sleep, then you do it with the dog. A good way to count paces, keep it first small and in a rythmic way. Kind of like you would study coreografie for dance steps. If you dont find it to silly, ask someone to help you with that by counting loud together and clapping with the hands. This will get your brain moving. Wish you the best!

try some Rally for a while.

We did.  He has his RN and we quit after that.  I find Rally simple and dull, and Strauss barks through the entire thing because it doesn't move quickly enough for him.  Get him in agility and he's happy as a pig in snot because he almost never has to stop moving (He absolutely hates contact obstacles....I've not even trialed him in standard yet because of it, only jumpers).

Is he crazy about food?

He likes food, but his biggest reward by far is playing tug.  He LOVES tug games and would play it until his heart gave out.  The problem I'm having is not rewarding for everything, and phasing out the toy for trialing.  We an get through one or two exercises in a trial, and when he realizes his reward hasn't come beyond "Good dog", he gets goofy and decides which exercises he wants to do, and which he doesn't.

He looks like he can do everything you are asking him to do, but he is goofing around, and that frustrates you. Strauss is rewarding himself instantly for things he does and is only partial focused on you.

This is very true.  The dog is just like his owner...impatient.  He wants to be rewarded immediately, and if he has to wait, the exercise isn't worth his time.  He doesn't like things that move slowly either.  Like in the first video, the moment I told him to fuss "ZOOM!" off he went.  He wants to go HIS speed, and his speed is always FAST.  Not going to lie, he's made me cry more than once :-p

These are agility videos, but you can see how drivey he is (forgive the knocked bars...I was very proud of him that day to be honest.  He did everything I told him to do):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iFPOfNzw6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-T2t9mlKf0&feature=channel

Did he demolish the courses?  Little bit...but he went where I sent him, and it's taken us TWO YEARS to get that far.  When I started with him there was no way in hades that he would have just laid at that start line and looked at me to go.  He'd drag me to the start, I'd take off the leash, and he'd be gone...he thought the game was just fine played by himself.  He also used to bite me (frustration more than anything).  Haven't been bitten in quite awhile, though there was a period of time where I just wanted to quit he made me so angry.

We've not shown in obedience partially because of money, and partially because of how poorly he showed while I was in Texas.  There was absolutely no focus and he refused to heel.  He was slow, he was sloppy, and largely unresponsive.  We've been excused 3 times, and that certainly doesn't make me enjoy training, beause he trains just fine, but won't trial.

This video demonstrates rather well how stressed I get in competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5koGHXqTto&feature=related

This is our VERY FIRST agility trial EVER...and it shows.

My voice is high and panic and just screams stress, so my dog is much barkier and misses more jumps.  I didn't trust him enough, and so I directed him wrong, and the more he missed, the more frustrated I got, even though it was MY fault.  You can hear him getting more and more vocal as we progress because things get so difficult for me.  There is a pinwheel sequence we did (the send to the tunnel) that was GORGEOUS and that I'll always remember because it flowed so nicely, and that's when we started working with each other instead of fighting for control of the game

Here's a video at the Houston, TX trial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdY7BfOw9v4&feature=related

I'm much more relaxed here because I'm trusting my

Good point to walk the pattern without the dog!  And in your sleep!  If you get to practice on a field too, you can walk your paces out and remember visually where the 50 pace mark is.  For me counting out the 50 paces was the hardest, the shorter ones, ie: the build up (10 to 15 paces)   not so much. 

For both Schutzhund and herding, I run the "procedure" over and over again in my head.  In fact, usually don't sleep much the night before a trial. LOL  More so in Schutzhund because things will be the same.   In herding courses can change, what the sheep are doing can change (due to weather, time of day, etc. etc.).  But the difference in the herding, was that no matter what happened, I have the confidence that I could make it through.   :)

For my first and second Schutzhund trials (1 and 2) I was a total and complete basket case!  We still passed, barely, but the obedience wasn't pretty due to me stressing my dog out from my nerves.  I had to change tactics!  For the 3, I had the nerves in better check and we did much better.  We'll see how I do with my second dog, I'm getting ready to trial!   I just hope that being through it once before and having that confidence of knowing what is expected of me, helps.   :)