by Centurian on 07 November 2019 - 18:11
Yes , I remember that comment by Gustav. My First GS 1968 , whose parents were from Germany : that dog could do anything and everything !! As some people have sated " the whole complete package'. He without any trai ing in real life protected me. Yet he was social , discerning. He also could sent and track anywhere I went. One day he got out of the house by accident , he tracked me as a 6 month pup 1.5 miles away from home to my school . No one ever taught this dog to track , even when he was that young. HOWEVER*** that was way before this WL & SL split !! I think the GS back then were a different serial model :-) . The fellow that trained Bodo Lieberg , when I was an adult came to my home and visited me. We had many conversations about the GSs he trained through the years and the GS I had back then and in my years , compared to the GS of today . So yes , Gustav is right in describing some dogs as " all purpose " or , ' all round ' in my terminology . The difficulty IMOp , is that are very very very rare to find today - again that is my opinion .
Every dog is most valuable and worth a Million … simply because……. it is their dog :-)
by Rik on 07 November 2019 - 18:11
and I really do believe that is what the Captain meant for his breed to be.
I do think they should all meet a standard and go from there. I do think hat "standard" has become pretty weak sauce though.
by duke1965 on 08 November 2019 - 02:11
Also BM,, I AM NOT mixing KNPV dogs into my shepherds, it is a dutch KNPV breeder who has one of my females and breeds her with his males, and produces strong dogs for sport and LE
by mrdarcy on 08 November 2019 - 03:11
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 06:11
My all time favorite working breed has always been the Malinois, since I was a little kid, however, that does not mean I cannot appreciate a different breed that I see as a good working dog.
As long as people are not blind to what they defend and do not become rabid in their obsessions over their breed and cannot see its short comings, we are good and I am talking about any breed.
There are those who think the GSD is the be all and end all of the dog world, I think the same thing about a good Malinois, but, I am not blind to the issues that the breed suffers from either. GSD people care about pedigrees and registration papers and continuing the "purity" of the breed, same as other breed people whom I interact with and they defend their breeds.
I care about a great working dog in front of me, not what its grandfather was doing. I care about that dog working, not its registration papers. Its a different world between the GSD and the Malinois or the Malinois X and we can sit here all day debating which is a better dog, but, for some of us, at the end of the day, the dog that we can rely on is the right dog, regardless of its breed. Have a great day.
by Centurian on 08 November 2019 - 09:11
Hired Hand … On one dimension I whole heartly understand your thoughts and I can agree with you in that respect. I often say that to me Pedigrees are not the end all . However I share with people is that what I see that matters most is that dog /person standing in front of me. When I started out professionally in the dog world , learning Sch , Protection etc , and even when I worked with police officers in LE , I was ' gung ho '. I had a certain notion about what a ' WORKING dog was and should be '. Then slowly through time , having worked with countless people and canines in many evdeavors .. my thoughts about a ' working dog ' evovled . I thought I was going to teach dogs and to change them to better them as working dogs …..And then I found …. that the dogs had changed me and taught me more than I could ever possibly teach them !!! I thought I would better them and bring out their working potential and I found that they brought out my potential and bettered me !
All people have capabilitites , skills , potential and they all have different make ups . So are the working dogs . As long as a dog or a person is healhty and all factors equal , every person and every dog has the capacity to ' work '. Children as they play , in real terms : that 'play' is their work . The only difference regarding ' work ' is the kind of work , the task , that is done. Every family dog can scent , bark [ with the exception dog the barkless dog ] . Search and rescue , nice endeavor , but the fact and the reality is that just about every family dog can find it's child companion if lost . This does not take high level specialty training. Maybe a little communication with the dog , but just about every dog has that capacity to find it's famly member .
People often , just about daily , come to me or talk to me about their dogs. I have had GS my whole life and I have had Mals . Both breeds I love- yet I also love all other breeds and accept them for their talents. I would often say this to someone looking for a family dog , a beagle , a Corgi , a terrier , just about any breed dog : if you had even a little dog in the house , just an every day house pet companion , believe me , there would be many children that would never ever had been abducted , stolen from within the house . There would be far less heart broken mothers and fathers. They would have had a chance to be alive having had some one else in the house with them aneven a little yapper, sort to speak , that barked to raise the red flag !! I even taught people and their dogs ' Home Alert ' programs . Now some of these dogs were not rock 'em sock em' , Rambo body guards . But they fuliflled a need and had a task to perform.
So talking about a dog that can " work ". When I hear that expression , I laugh to myself. Do you people only value a dog that can work , I do't know by your defintion ??? what do you mean by 'work '?. Is it that only dogs that can protect you with their lives - that is the only dog that rates in your eyes ? Sometimes I would like to ask them , "work" what do you mean by ' can work' ? I still come acrossmany many narrow minded , tunnel visioned people . Admittedly like I once was starting outlike that , and I perhaps once was like minded like that . MY dogs and people have taught me to change those preconcieved and narrow minded notions of a so called 'working dog' .
Several years ago , I had a very very very close friend who had a GS dog , show line at that . One day she was sitting on the couch , as she explained to me : Fido , " he keeps butting his nose to my chest and he never ever in the 3 years I owned him ever did that ' . A few days later I get another call , she said " Centurain , I went to the Dr. for a physical , he found a lump " .. Several days later another call and she told me she had breast cancer and that a biopsy showed early stage cancer . THE End of the story : she had treatments . That SL GS in essence saved her life !!!! He was never trained to detect cancer , never trained to detect anything — as I wrote, he never bumped her with his nose . Again , my view or a working dog - every dog has a purpose to fill in our lives and a job to do for us.
So , everybody think what you will , it's your perogative , but when I hear people talk about working dogs this and working dogs that , now I just laugh . They should have this trait and/or that trait , they should be bred like this or bred like that : I tell you that IMOp [ not all but ] many many people , and many many so called Professional people , that I encounter in the dog world are obcessive compulsive and /or a little wound up to tight that they miss the tree in the forest . Tunnel vision they have , and many don't even know they have it , and that is sad to me , very very very sad . Thank God my dogs taught me a thing or two about life and dogs - Thank God I say to myself. Now that is an opinion , of course.
Final word ,[ sarcasm of course] a mixed breed is a mixed breed and if all we do is mix breed then let's just do away with all breeds because many seem to say the breeds that presently exist are worthless because ' only working dogs' are important . Well that is what we have to breed for , right ? Just saying ….. [ end of sarcasm ]
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 10:11
What I call a working dog is the type that goes to work every day with its handler, I dont care what work they do, a guide dog, a herder, a hunting dog, a detection dog, it does not matter.
Yes, I do indeed hold these dogs in higher regard, but, that is me and according to you, you are not here to change minds.
Cent, passive aggression has never been my thing, one of the many reasons I dont post often, but, apparently it is a thing in here. The rest of your post, more of the same stuff we have talked about before.
In the end, I still dont know what all this has to do with what Black Malinois posted originally about. Now, please, continue laughing and shake your head, but, do try to have a great day.
by ValK on 08 November 2019 - 10:11
defense and guarding is one of specification amount of wider practical use of dogs and are necessary attribute of a breed,
which was developed for such purpose. faking during the training this aspect from capacity to be in real life applicable to a
circus performance purpose, eventually led to washing out innate traits, which are necessary for the dogs in use for defense
and subsequently been substituted by reliance on impulsiveness of prey instinct.
why one would train dog for protection, if that certain breed do not purposed for this from start to go and why one should
degrade traits (necessary for protection) in certain breed, which were created to be protector/guard?
by Centurian on 08 November 2019 - 11:11
My last post Hired was only a shared thought arising from Rik's last post. Hired .. I don't try to persuade people what to think , do and say . As a matterof fact : " what I concern myself is with , what I think ,I do and I say " That is what I concern myself within life " . I leave people to do think and say for thenselves as I do . For the record , my last post had nothing to do with you in mind , not in the least and nor was it directed at you . I simply gave a story about how MY thoughts and outlooks had changed from one way of looking to another way of looking at canines and people - for whatever it is worth or not worth to anyone else. Yes, I had written what I posted before and why not discuss that again , .. is the lesson not true in repsects and important ?
Well .. in r eference to what you did just post : It should be that they are held in high regard and also the people that work with them ! That has never been contested. [ BTW , the post was not directed to you personally. ] . But then again , so shoud not all dogs in a manner of speaking be held in high regard - that is my point !
I share this with you Hired :You know how far off many people's thoughts are IMOp and why I say some even professionals attitude and outlook of the pup/ dog is off? Someone once asked : " what do you first teach your pup/dog ., they meant sit , down , etc ? Many so called high end professional people answered : I teach the dog to sit first , others said I teach down first and and so on ..,Not one , not one of the people thay repsonded thought or wrote of this at all . not one : Until I wrote : " What I first teach a dog / puppy that it is loved and it is safe by and with me ! " . So if any one does not want to think what I wrote about many people losing the tree in the forest is true , then I accept that . However , it is also these same people that lose sight of what I wrote that fail to acknowledge that even the bravest dog that does life saving protection or sport needs to have this feeling and thought . It is these same people that bicker about prey and dsefense and this and that , mixed breed this with that and breeding this for that… these are many of the people that would have written for an answer to thayt question , ' sit , down , come ', … just saying …
Also and this is fact - there are many many die hard people interacting with dogs , some of my sport friends as a matter of fact , that absolutely lose sight of the reason for having a dog in life …and I leave that comment at that .
To note : why I did not respond to ' the thread and video ' per se : because by my standards , and my expectations , I was not impressed. Sometimes it is better to say nothing than say anything at all about a subject- but now for whatever it is not worth .. everyone knows what I thought . BTW I staed in the first scentence ' it was not my intention to tell people [persuade people] what to think .
Hired I don't address this to you for the record but since 'passive aggression ' has come appeared in a post and since 2 hours ago I was discussing this with my wife because someone contacted me about an canine aggressive problem last night. As far as I am concerned , me , myself that is , I take in Canine' and Peoples' Passive Aggression very very seriously ! Many people as far as the dogs go ,IMOp , underestimate passive aggression the same way they underestimate and value and use of a canine exceptionally high in ' Predaory Behaviors'.
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 11:11
I have never taught anyone of anything that they are loved, my actions speak volumes and it is all that is needed.
Personally speaking Cent, I do not hold all dogs nor all people in high regard, but, that is a deep topic and a whole different one.
Again, that is me, I cannot and will not speak for anyone else. Different people own dogs for different reasons, some just for sport, some just as a pet, etc, and they are all treated according to the beliefs these people hold.
Proper decorum prevents me from expressing how I feel about some of those people, although I am not shy at all doing it in person.
Valk, I have no idea what you are referring to.....