Extreme Orex Aykmar Son DM positive - Page 4

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by apple on 19 June 2018 - 10:06

While x-rays have slightly reduced the incidence of HD and ED, they are both probably the medical condition that most severely hurts the breed. Then there is the issue of breeding pairs with good hips producing HD and breeding pairs with not so good hips producing very good hips. One article I read suggested the cause is that the breed has become too large. 85-90 pound males are not uncommon. Maybe the focus should be on breeding smaller dogs.

by JudyK on 19 June 2018 - 12:06

Duke that is very true that a carrier could produce a clear but the OFA test showed at risk and as you know it's genetically impossible for an at risk to produce a clear. Why the disparity between the two tests?

by duke1965 on 19 June 2018 - 14:06

you stated that he was tested carrier also, anyhow, I have been in dogbreeding for 33 or 34 years now and the consistent pattern is that the breeders that fight healthtesting the most obviously have a reason to do so.

by joanro on 19 June 2018 - 14:06

Duke, was necropsy performed on the dogs you claim ' developed' the disease?

How prevelent is dm in your dogs n your present country?
Is necropsy being performed on all those dogs?
Otherwise, your claims are empty.

Exraying for hd is definitive . In other words, its tangible because you get results for that particular dog...has not a lot to do with his offspring results for hd because there are many, many variables contributing to hd.

Not so with present dm DNA test...there is no proof the sod1 allele causes dm.
98% of wire haired fox terriers test A/A or ' afected' yet there are no reported cases of dm in the wire haired fox terrier breed. So explain to everyone how that DNA test is accurate.
And frankly, I need proof of necropsy reports of all those dogs you saw with dm who were the result of ' carrier's bred to ' affected' before I will believebyour claim....you are making claimscthat not even the labs have seen.  Sounds like hogwash....do you have stocks in the DNA test?  .

by joanro on 19 June 2018 - 20:06

Duke I will bet you money that all those dogs you believe have dm actually have a condition not uncommon with protection trained dogs...constant repetitive micro tearing of the iliopsoasis muscles that becomes ossified.
Causes lameness in hind legs, an odd gait where the dog does not lift his hind legs forward and creates a shuffling gate. The condition is seldom diagnosed because vets don't know how to check for.
I know a sch three dog that had it. His owner trainer told me the vet school explained poor or certain conformation can predispose a dog. The constant repetitive injury over time causes the tears in the muscle to ossify. The gait is affected in the hind legs, shortened forward extension and sort of shuffling.
The iliopsoasis muscles attaches to the pelvis on either side of the spine. In butchering meat animals we call the muscle the sweet meat as it is very tender. It's on the underside of the lower spine wherethe back strap is on the dorsal side of the spine.

A much more commmon condition than dm, especially in protection trained dogs because of constant and repetitive slamming impact creating micro tearing in the muscles.

by joanro on 19 June 2018 - 21:06

Duke, I don't ' fight' health testing so don't go making up crap insinuating that because I have learned that the dm DNA test is not proven to correlate to dm, other than occational coincidence, that I am covering up some issues. I tested all my imported dogs and second generation after that with zero dm.
It's a bogus test that is going to cause the breed the same demise the collie eye syndrome caused in the collie breed in the early 60's.
You can select your breeding dogs based on DNA tests and eliminate great dogs from the gene pool same as the collie people did with their hysteria over the eye thing. And then show us how you eliminated dm in the breed.
I am stating my opinion on a test that is not proven to expose the cause for dm.
I have never even seen a case of dm in a dog after sixty years earning a living with dogs from grooming, to training circus dogs for Ringling show, to working in grey hound racing kennels to my own performing dogs to training and breeding gsd for 20 years.

How many years have you been breeding gsd, after you quit breeding Bouvier? How much dm did you have in your Bouvier and how many tested " affected"?

Your moral high ground because you claim all your dogs test " clear" or " dm free" is proof that the test is bogus,,,,unless you necropsies every dead dog that you DNA tested in order to prove the so called " dm clear" dogs truely did not have any sign of dm. Because, as you may know, dm develops over many years and may not cause a problem for the dog till old age. But the disease might be there without showing symptoms.
Necropsy is the only sure way to diagnose dm.


by Rik on 19 June 2018 - 21:06

honestly, bad news as far as the test goes. but if the dog is extreme, meets all other criteria that I wanted in him, I would go on with whatever original plans I had when I purchased him.

jmo,
Rik
Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 21 June 2018 - 20:06

Agree with Rik. Judge the dog, in this case. If he's what you wanted, keep him. Do what you planned on.

Davisgsds, I know perfectly well what GenSol states on their test results. My issue that they will come back and tell you a perfectly healthy 9 week old puppy is "affected." No, he is not affected. He might be AT RISK of being affected LATER (much later, typically), but he is not affected. It's false information and seems like a scare tactic. We don't have numbers for how many GSDs are running around healthy at 12+ bearing two copies of that mutation. We just don't know.

I do test, but I certainly don't eliminate based on results. I simply choose complementary partners. As I said, my Extreme Orex daughter is a carrier also.

by rakeshausky on 22 June 2018 - 00:06

I have noticed some people on this thread stating that they've never had DM in any of their dogs, so they don't test for it and it's not reliable etc etc. But, how many dogs have you had that have displayed any hip/elbow problems? If you haven't had any display any symptoms, then why do you x-ray hips and elbows? I mean, the logic is the same there essentially.

by joanro on 22 June 2018 - 01:06

No, logic is not he same. I do test for hd and did  DNA test all my initial imports, and second generation. After researching, I came to the conclusion the test is not conclusive and by admission of researchers, will not be eliminated using DNA because supposedly, the allele tested for can MUTATE! So even a dog that is supposedly " clear" can  get the disease due to mutation and can produce pups that will be " at risk" .?

 


So the dm test does not tell you anything about the health of your dog. 
Again I state: the wire haired fox terrier breed tests 98% "at risk" and yet there has never been a case of dam in the wire haired fox terrier breed....so how does the test work? It doesn't.
Hd on the other hand can be SEEN in the exray...even dogs that don't LOOK like they have a problem can still have an issue that will show up in exrays. And without going into a big explanation about pathology of hd, I don't use any dogs for breeding who have not been exrayed and show no signs of hd.
The only definitive way to diagnose DMis necropsy after death. I'm not willing to sacrifice my dogs to find out if they have a disease especially if they are not ill.

Big difference between exraying and doing a DNA test that is not conclusive.
BTW, I have the same number of dogs with DM that I tested, as dogs that were not tested.... ZERO!!
But I have bought some pups that turned out to have hd when exrayed at 12 months, so were put into pet homes for free with full disclosure.



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