Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 6

translation of what?

From helper, to you, to the forum.

Did you leave the club where you used to train? Why? No development, or something else?

In case Mithuna listened to "us", his female should be the best obedience trained dog of the world by now,
and his dog did have "bitework training" for quite some while in a club (?).

I guess the former trainer/helper didn´t see any positive improvement and told Mithuna, and now he tries again, but "civil" now.
I might be wrong, are you willing to clarify?

Prager, this is an adult dog, showing defense/aggression/"hate" of strangers since puppyhood - a stranger can´t even touch this dog - good luck with your "defusing" method ( and in this case it´s about dog AND handler ).

This dog doesn´t need any bitework training, but a lot of sozialisation and obedience ( old fashioned corrections and commands ).

I am thankful for every day we don´t need to read about an "accident", even at home ( wife and child ).

I know you think different, but I think for a lot of "working dog breed" owners it´s better to do obedience, agility, flyball, dog diving, tracking, everything else than "PP" training. For what? To feel better, or more important?

This is a "defensive", maybe even "aggressive" dog ( although I doubt the aggressive, but I strongly guess unstable ), unsocial dog, the owner is living in New York, not in the woods, any "bite" training, in case Mithuna really wants it, should be based on prey, not on defense ( for the sake of owner and dog ).

This dog shouldn´t learn, that there is not only growling or barking, but biting, too...


 

Sorry, Prager, now I have to quote one of your statements again ( just read it ), because I think, you missed the point.

When you say:
"Some may say it does not matter foundation is all the same. I disagree as you know:) . It is absolutely not the same." -

it´s not about same training for every dog ( this would be nonsense ), it´s about the same "basics of dog training", like how to handle the leash, how to strengthen certain drives ( no matter which drives ), proper grip and targeting ( added, because I forgot ), how to make the dog feel good, how to support traits you want, and suppress traits you don´t want - these are "basics", and they are always the same, no matter if you are training for IPO, PP, agility, or dock diving.

Guess there is a huge misunderstanding - maybe you are able to agree now.
Sometimes people simply need to talk.

@ Mithuna - There is a big disparity between your observations, past impressions you have left with people on this forum..and your trainers "evaluation summary". That's all I'll say.

Mithuna, were you able to solve the problem of getting her vetted when necessary?

Ok

I deliberately never did any obedience because I did not want to dilute any thing she had naturally by continuous restraint. We are with the same club , but after an initial try out with bite work the trainer asked to allow her to mature for a few more months. The trainer has also owned several dogs including the mother of Querry Haus Antverpa He also owned a few DDR dogs and he mentioned that based on his experience they tend reach 75% of their maturity by 2 years , and 100% by 3 years old. Now we are back at it and I like his assessment that she genetically defensive but have good prey and grips. I sought of already knew this because she would take the rag from me and calmly hang on to it, and she would tirelessly chase a thrown ball for as many times as I can throw it.
This dog was well socialized up to 6 months of age, after which her defense came out very suddenly; since then she will not let strangers handle her ( except if they stand completely motionless and allow her to approach them ....but please dont move your hands ).
This dog is out and about everyday with me and I have places where I can play off leash ball with her ( 5:30 am on the training field ). This dog is completely stable in our home and has slept in our bed since November 2014.
So let us see how she progresses.

A video would help immensely in people's ability to relate to what you are telling us, and then it would be easier to offer any suggestions.

Neighbor promised to help make vid this week and ill post asap.

The vet's solution was 50 mg ace promezine + muzzle. This was suggested by and approved by the vet. Fine so far.

Susie dog quite obviously knows what is biting and does not need to "learn it".

Then you also say: Prager, this is an adult dog, showing defense/aggression/"hate" of strangers since puppyhood - a stranger can´t even touch this dog - good luck with your "defusing" method ( and in this case it´s about dog AND handler ).

Prager: This is ALL malarkey. You do not know anything about my defusing method yet you are insinuating that it will not work.  I have never failed to train dog to defuse if the trainer followed instructions . It is as simple as teaching sit. In this case it would take about 4 mo .



Then you say:

any "bite" training, in case Mithuna really wants it, should be based on prey, not on defense ( for the sake of owner and dog ).

Prager Hans:  Here I disagree again. Bite work in prey will not hurt but it  will also not help any much  because the dog is not having problem in prey,....the dog is having problem in defense. The principle of the helpful protection training in defense is to teach the dog to know  when he is permitted to bite and when not to. That is what protection is. Defusing is big part of it.   To assume that dog just "hates" because he is in defense drive is ridiculous. The doig in defense does not hate, he is protective. But I am not going to go there.
The dog-this dog probably, is either  overly protective or insecure or both.  That is most often based on my experience caused by the owner's inability or unwillingness or establish leadership position. The insecurity is then built from puppyhood since the pup had no guidance from a leedr. The dog has no guideline thus he sets his own rules without the leader's input. And that leads to disaster. What I see here is the dog which from his immaturity  was lacking leadership and when someone invaded his territory he - as most dogs to lesser or greater degree do not like and he learned really quickly that if he shows aggression then  what he perceives as a threat will go away. The dog never got guidance from "a" leader  of any kind on what is threat and when to show aggression and when not to show it ands more. This the dog just like a hippie did only what felt good.  Aggression made him feel good because it pushed the perceived threat away - so he got aggressive. ( please do not tell me that hippies are not aggressive.

This then inevitably  led to his owner to be distressed by such undesirable aggression  when the owner got worried every time  stranger came by. Dog felt his owner's worry and misread it as an insecurity in his pack and since he was now leader he  started taking care of it by more aggression which then led to more worry of the owner and on and on and on and  on  spiraling down.

The entire process needs to be reversed. The problem lies in the handler and not in the dog . If some different owhenr - like let say me  would have the same dog  I am quite certain I would not have problem  Mithuna has.  The dog will never get better if:

1. the owner is not mentally, physically, philosophically able to establish leadership position.

2. If the owner does not have guideline by "no nonsense" knowledgeable  trainer who knows how to deal with problem. 

3. if the owner is not able to follow such trainers directions.

4. if the owner will stop to obey by the principal of the newly learned knowledge after the "training" with the trainer is done. The correction of the dog is based on fundamental change of the handler's believe system and personality.

 This is not a problem for pet smart type crap training solutions or sme cookie cutter system solution. This is complex and fluid problem on several levels and it needs to be solved on all those levels in proper order. 



Prager Hans