Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 4

Wow.

Sounds like people who know of issues with this particular dog or type are giving you good advice. I do not support this type of training an unbalanced dog with possible temperament issues. Dont make a bad name for the breed or protection training.

And food for thought....just because your trainer may be a very talented trial helper DOES NOT automatically give credence to his knowledge of training and reading dogs!!! Any athletic coordinated young man can learn in short time the mechanics of catching and driving dogs in an IPO trial. It takes YEARS and the training of many different dogs at many levels to learn how to train and read dogs. Do not assume he knows what hes doing just because he is a high level IPO helper.

Super post Gsd

Good post, gsdfan

@Fan
" unbalanced dog with possible temparament isdues". Elucidate please.

These types of comments in this thread from information you apparently shared in another post leads me to that conclusion.

"we already know your dog is very high in defense, to the point where she's a danger when you have her out in public"

"make sure the dog has a good foundation in obedience, so you have control of her at ALL times"

"Still the control needs to be there, or you could be facing a big lawsuit, and the loss of your dog, if she's labelled as dangerous."

"Until you've got that--and I mean flawless.....--it's too soon to be doing bitework with her." 

"We already know she's got a hair-trigger and comes in defense, not prey--that's not going anywhere"

"she's going to get herself in trouble."

"obedience needs to be there FIRST"

 

The following IMO is a description of "correct and balanced temperament": A German shepherd should not aggress on a friendly or neutral person without command, whether the dog is civil or not.  A GSD is supposed to be aloof but stable, A GSD is not supposed to not lend themselves to easy friendships but are not supposed to be completely unsocial and unapproachable.  A GSD may not enjoy being petted by a stranger (left on their own mine stay just out of arms reach of a friendly stranger but are otherwise neutral if the person comes closer to pet them) but should not desire to bite for no reason or cower behind the handler.  A good GSD may watch and even stare vigilantly, all passersby and strangers, be very aware of their surroundings.  They may show justifiable civil aggression on suspicious persons or suspcious situations without command.

 

An excessively defensive dog with a  "hair trigger" is not correct and is unbalanced.  A "friendly" or neutral helper (which is how the initial contact should have looked) tossing a rag or tug should not push a dog into a defensive reaction.  However if the helper was slapping the tug into the ground in the direction of the dog (not what the helper should do on initial contact) and suspicious posturing... a defensive reaction may be justified. If the dog started showing aggression just at the sight of the helper...not an appropriate reaction.

 

Trainers often, even myself wait to start obedience with most dogs.  The reason is not to inhibit obnoxious type behaviors a trainer needs in order to work with a dog in prey.  If one raises a puppy, not to chew, not to mouth people (not to use his mouth), not to pull on the leash, not to jump, not to bark...etc, etc.  Then you take him to a trainer to start bitework and now you want him to do all these things, it often takes extra time and work from the helper to undo everything you have raised him not to.  The average dog has natural inhibitions and will not pro-actively just bite a person for no reason just because the dog doesn't know them.  So waiting to do obdeince is not a big issue with these dogs because in the early stages of bitework a dog (especially in IPO) is not likely going to show the same aggressive behavior unelss he sees equipment, or certain behaviors he learns to recognize by the helper.  As the training progresses and by the time the trainer moves into to civil work, civil work out of the context of the training field, hidden equipment etc.  the dogs obdience would be well in progress.

 

The problem with your dog is he is working in defense and he has no inhibitions with biting a person for real (and apparently had some concerning situations or incidents which Hexe and Sunsilver are referring to?) and you are now rewarding and encouraging him to bite which re-inforces that behavior is not only ok but good.... therefore obdience and control now have to take precedence because it is a huge safety issue.  

 

Will post a vid before end of week.

Gee's are  only substantial  posts I agree with in its entirety. Good dog by the way. What baffles me however that none asked for what is the dog being trained. All I got from OP is "bite work training". Some may say it does not matter foundation is all the same. I disagree as you know:) . It is absolutely not the same. Is it sport, protection, is the protection offensive or defensive. And even if I would agree with foundation "being always the same " ridiculousness , this post is about progress and not just about foundation. Also OP said that it would like the dog to start in prey. I'll tell you this. Always build on what the dog's strengths. Do not try to fix the dog by starting fixing what the dog is weak on. If it is is prey , build on prey, of it is defense build on defense. And it is not problem that the dog is in defense. That is what the dog is work on it make the best of it. if the dog is mostly defense then it may matter in sport. But in my opinion there is no dog who is just 100% in defense. Most dogs have enough prey to pursue if developed correctly.  People put dog training into boxes like the movie "If It's Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium". That will get many dogs canned. People love their dogs thus   getting rid of dog is not an option for such folks and it is up to the trainer to train the dog andf the handler to get out of the dog-man relationship as much as possible. 

Hans: What baffles me however that none asked for what is the dog being trained

GSDfan: I did. In my first post. The question was never answered.

I see , Yes you  have and Op have not answer. Well then there is little point to talk about this.