Seeking your ideas for a specific training difficulty. - Page 2

Yogi I'd normally agree with that but there was a point until fairly recently where this dog's weight had started dropping off a bit too rapidly, prompting health concerns. Having got him stabilised again at around 37 & a half k, I am not in much of a rush at the moment to interfere with how much he gets (kibble manufacturer's recommendation less about 5%).  He is responsive on other new exercises and modifying other things he partly  knows how to do already, it is just this outside Down I'm having probs with, so I honestly don't think he isn't working on it because he isn't hungry. He won't 'follow my hand' down with a ball either (despite I have now got him obsessed with 2-Ball !).

Barbara Woodhouse would simply step on the dog's leash near the collar and force the dog into a down.

Mrs Woodhouse may have done that, Apple, but I think most people - at least on the UK dog scene - would today agree that her methods are somewhat outdated and unecessarily harsh.
Even if I was inclined to use this forceful method, my point is that these days I cannot be sure of the physical strength, ability and consistency to do it properly (without risking damaging myself or the dog); and, I'm sure you would agree, once would normally not be enough, so I'd be struggling with the repetitions. I am quite old enough to have seen - and performed - these sorts of methods in past years, and am actually quite glad that these days most of us have left them behind; I do not think they do very much to enhance the bond between dogs and owners.

If you're physically unable to do what is needed to get your dog to complete an exercise then another solution would be to have someone else help you and you give the commands...
I think a lot of ideas have been tossed about but don't seem to help you...
You can also have the dog up on a table (outside) and work on the commands...I'm sure you know but when you begin to "Generalize" a command then it begins to make sense to the dog...
I use "Motivational" techniques for teaching but when it comes to competing at a higher level there almost always requires some compulsion...You can limit the amount of compulsion used...If you'd use the foot on the leash method...you don't have to force the dog down...Only hold the dog in a position that he/she will do the command in time...Then you can reward the dog with food while still in the down position...Just some ideas...

~Bob~

Bob, I think I might have just as much trouble getting him up onto a table as I have in getting him to understand why he should lie down outdoors on command, after half a lifetime of clearly never having been asked to do very much at all ! I already got the blank looks, when I asked him to jump onto a garden box to make grooming an easier task (and I could not lift him); also not entirely convinced he doesn't have a dodgy disc or two, the vet found a slight reaction when he went down his spine, so I don't want to push too hard for him to leap about like a younger, fitter hound - or jeopardise his ability to jump into the car. And there is t.b.h. no way of getting a solid table, of any height, outside here, & nowhere to store it afterwards, so the whole idea is a non-starter. There are (communal) tables available but these are all wobbly, flimsy trestles - ok for a Tea, but not for a 37 kilo+ dog to leap onto. I would have to drive him off site every time. Benches, however, as in Sunsilver's suggestion, I can access.

Don't agree the ideas so far don't help - I am starting to work with place marking, using a towel (that can gradually be made smaller) at first INDOORS where he will lie down on it, and gradually moving it to outside - as suggested to me by Centurian in a PM. This may take a little time to do, slowly and thoroughly, but I have high hopes for it. And in the meantime outdoors I am also trying Sunny's friend's bench idea - again, in incremental steps. I think we will get there eventually, even though this middle-aged gent of a dog has left his puppyish enthusiasm well in his past. I certainly feel I have more options than I did before I asked the question.

Re the foot on the leash, I already said I may be able to use that, in response to your earlier post - but NOT in the way that Woodhouse used to use it and Apple was referencing. As you say, you can limit the compulsion used.

PS Almost a month ago I tried to enlist the help of a local Trainer on a 1 -2- 1 basis, which might have covered the help Q Man mentions - but she, so far, has not seen fit to reply to my enquiry. Other people I trust are too far away to be easily available.