What causes this working difference? - Page 12

you are starting to sound like dumbass, civil dogs dont Always mean risk of flight and social dog doesnot mean it is couragious, yu cannot just pick what suits your point of view

As stated, the pup’s potential for working in LE can be evaluated at an early age.  Having experience with these types of puppies and being able to see them develop is priceless when it comes to being able to understand and accurately evaluate the prospect.  Reading books/webpages or watching videos is no substitute for hands on experience.  I highly recommend finding someone who has an eye for these young pups and absorbing as much information from them as possible.   Duke hits on a couple key points.  He described others and could describe a lot more, but two stand out.  1) ‘Forward movement’ to a challenge or perceived threat at an early age is critical.   It is not uncommon to see hairs on the back raise as they advance.  When you see this pup, you will also notice the scorpion tail that is up as well.  This is a characteristic sign of how the puppy is starting to dominate his environment.   2) Barking at approaching strangers at night is another indicator.  Don’t confuse this with an adult dog who barks at everyone at the park.  I would often have someone walk a young pup out at night and then step out of the shadows.  I enjoyed watching the strong pup draw tension on the line and let me know his intentions.   

I like the young pup in Valk’s video.  With a good eye you can see much more of the puppy’s behavior associated with the biting.  Reminds me of going to my vet with my first police dog when he was a puppy.  The old vet served in the Army taking care of the military dogs.  He always enjoyed provoking some of those pups and seeing their reactions.                       

Duke, I never said civil dogs always mean risk of flight or that social dogs always possess courage.

What some are describing in these young pups is an early display of defensive aggression. That can develop into a very confident defensive aggression, somewhat confident defensive aggression, or weak defensive aggression. It is definitely not fight drive. If you don't believe fight is a drive, then those behaviors are not necessarily a sign of strong fighting instincts because the pups are too young to have had the training and pressure that will allow them to develop their confidence and fighting instincts or drive. They haven't had the training or the maturity to learn they can always defeat the bad guy.With several seeming to think prey drive is not much of an asset to a patrol dog, many are of the opinion that the dogs that show the strongest fight drive have very good prey drive along with a confident defensive aggression. And dogs can be very social and have very strong fight drive. Being social does not necessarily mean a young dog will not show territorial aggression, or pull forward toward a stranger that might look imposing. This happened recently with my dog who just turned a year old. We were walking in a parking lot and a security guard was standing at an entrance with his arms crossed, very upright in his stance. He was also tall. We were about 60 yards away and when my dog saw him, he poked out his chest and stood tall forcefully pulling me toward the security guard. He was in a serious, not playful mood, but did not bark. He is not a sharp, low threshold for defense dog.

Apple, you just shot yourself in the foot in that last post, lets see if you know where LOL

If you are suggesting I was saying my dog was displaying fight drive, I was not. Nor does a social dog have to be a social butterfly.

no, its not, and if fight is a drive, what is the trigger to start the fight drive ?

apple
I have seen the video of the pup Valk posted and see it as a dog with inappropriate aggression that lacks confidence and is compensating with aggression. The dog might make a good guard/perimeter dog, but not a dog I would want. I would prefer to see confidence at that age.

apple, this what that pup precisely shows - absolute confidence paired with boldness.
first thing you should pay attention to - pup about only 5 weeks of age. that gives to him just 2~2.5 weeks of learned active life experience, thus his behavior is based strictly on innate instinctual response to that particular arised circumstance.

secondly - i intentionally put there explanation, what was trigger for such pup's response to attempt to pet him. that was vet and vaccine injection, which seems went with infliction of pain.
approaching hand,  caring the scent associated with pain.
first response from pup was a warning "stay away", vet ignores that sign, thus pup produce bite to drive off something what associate with his bad experience. vet ignores again and that intensifies pup's response by active offensive action.

during this one and a half minute of interaction that pup didn't show even single moment of fear and avoidance.
also you should pay close attention to the ending - pain not returned and pup very quickly becomes calm and start to show curiosity, explorational behavior, which indicates very good nerves/temperament of that pup and his ability for fast recovery from stress.

these two ladies actually without knowing it, did performed quite good test. not exactly in their manner but similar provocational test we always did on pups of that age. it's the best age to figure out real potential of future dog, before pup acquire and start to act from learned experience.

With fight drive, the behavior of the opponent can be irrelevant. So if the bad guy is passive, the catalyst isn't prey or defense. There is no movement. The dog isn't worried. The dog wants to win and has learned how to win with maturity and the right training. A simple command can trigger the fight. Plus, some dogs have better instincts than others at reading people's body language. It is not necessarily a person's body language is triggering worry/defense, but rather, the dog senses something is not right about a person's body language and sees him as a potential adversary to defeat. Sometimes the dog is right and sometimes he is wrong. Discernment is a factor/trait as well. Should a GSD bite a young child because he is squaring up to the dog, making direct eye contact or barking at the dog?

that was a lot of nothing, keep it simple, what trigger starts fight drive, you say simple command, so its not drive, but trained behaviour ?