DDR, Czech and West Germany working bloodline - Page 12

LOL!   I'm glad that I was able to inspire you.  You make some very good points in your posts on this thread, some I totally agree with and some I respectfully have a different view on.  As for myself, I have never discarded a dog.  I have raised all of my dogs from pups and worked and titled everyone since I got into SchH.  I am the first to realize that there are no "perfect" dogs.  Even the best dogs have their quirks or flaws.  I am fortunate to currently have an excellent dog, with excellent working ability but I would be the first to point out his positive and negative traits.  I see potential problems with dogs too high in defense and lacking in prey as discussed earlier.  I train each week and coach a friend with a very defensive, low prey drive dog.  The dog is now 3 and we have spent a lot of time developing the prey drive, working on grips and teaching the dog that everything is not a fight to the death.  The dog has a phenomenal working line pedigree and is outstanding in OB and tracking, but very serious and sharp in bite work.  This dog is potentially very dangerous and since it is a sport dog a lot of patience and time has to be invested in working this dog.  The owner  / handler has no intention of discarding this dog and although it is a lot of work I'm dedicated and committed to helping them.     

When it comes to Police dogs and testing, you need to know how much pressure to put on a dog and I never push a dog further than necessary.  Many PD's want dogs to track and do detection work and do not want dogs with serious aggression.  I do not subscribe to that philosophy, I want dogs for our handlers that I am convinced will engage when needed.  I can teach any dog to track that has appropriate drive, but not every dog can apprehend a determined suspect and stay in the fight.  Since, I do not discard dogs and our unit is relatively small for the size of our PD I need to select the right dog and stack the odds in our favor from the start.  I have a very thought out testing process and it is designed to expose the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs we test.  The dogs are rated in 12 or more categories and I keep records.  Aggression and the ability to engage a person with out equipment is one important category.  This is where the high defense dogs often fail.  This is where the issues are exposed.  I can also tell how the foundation training was done on the dogs, because you never really see "green" dogs anymore.  I can also see where the problems have trained out or covered up.  I can usually tell if the dog has a sport foundation like SchH or KNPV.  I then take that into account when evaluating the dogs. 

I have one new Dutch Shepherd in our unit that recently certified and has hit the street in a limited Patrol capacity.  This dog can be extremely aggressive when agitated and to a novice would appear to be a strong, aggressive, tough dog.  My take on this dog is there is an underlying insecurity which causes his rage to go forward when threatened.  For a Police dog a little insecurity is not always a bad thing if the dog goes forward with aggression.  The primary role for this dog will be narcotics detection, however it is still a dual purpose dog.  I am spending extra time in training with this dog, building this dog and exposing his handler to what I feel are the dog's deficiencies.  The handler being a novice believes he has the baddest dog alive, I am not of the same belief.  But, that is the dog he has and the dog will be fine given the right training and experience.  Overall, a nice dog that will do fine especially as a narcotics dog.  IMO, this dog needs a lot of work and confidence building and needs to mature.  I have been putting the time into the dog and the handler working on their individual needs as I see it.  I want them both to succeed and I want the handler and dog to be safe.  Thinking you have the biggest baddest dog or that you are or the biggest baddest person can get you hurt in my line of work.  Just like Mike Tyson learned, there is always some one who is bigger, badder and tougher on the right day.    I will train to teach the dog that he is the biggest and baddest in his mind, but the handler needs to be clear on his dogs strengths and weaknesses.  No discarded dogs here. 

Slamdunc   good post

Excellent post Slamdunc

Calm down Jim, I said you inspired me and not that I disagree. I understand the selection process  for LE dog quite well since that is one of the things  which   I do for living. However many may not understand when you say that you have no use for such dogs or that you "reject" them from "whether it is testing, selecting and training for law enforcement or sport work"  and that such dog  " has little value to you". ( Reject and discard are synonymous).  That is why I have written what I have. I understand that dog for LE should be, or better stated, must be  as close to perfect as possible. But that said  I also see that being done by  people who obtained dogs as their companions or even for sport ( which you mentioned too ) . To LE dog besides being companion must be as  perfect tool for the job as possible or lives may be jeopardized. And I will always put human life as such above life of a dog as such.  Rejecting dog from LE program where such dog can not perform well or there is other better dog available is thus  moral and ethical.
I also understand that matching dog and handler is very important and if such match is not a adequate fit that such even good dog must be placed with different handler.
I also understand that if the handler/trainer team with limited abilities to train specific type of a dog are not able to develop LE dog from good quality dog of certain type and if a dog which is not fitting their particular training approach  is better to be put with different handler/trainer team. That is also done for above reasons in ethical and moral way.
     However that is not a situation where the dog is used for sport or as a companion.  I am specializing in behavioral  and training problem solving in dogs for 40 years and I just  too often see people "rejecting", discarding or "not having used for dog" which is not perfect  for them in some  other function which  does not involve human life  or may endanger human life. I believe that this is wrong, immoral and not ethical. 
 
    Also I would like to stress out  one more time and I do not understand why is it so difficult to get this across for me;  I am not talking about dogs with low prey and high defense I am mainly  talking about dogs which have higher defense then prey where  both prey and defense are adequately high enough to do any training.  
Prager Hans

Prager,

I can claim I understand your point of view which if I want to reconstruct in my own simple words is like this
You are not talking about a dog which does not have a low or no prey at all, on the contrary you are talking about a dog with sufficient prey drive to a high prey drive but at the same time this dog has equal or higher defense drive, this equivalent or higher defense drive is not at the expense of the dog's prey drive.

That said I have a question for you (not for Slamdunc)
Can you confirm that all drives of a dog do not constitute a closed circuit? I explain what I mean; 
Prey + defense + other drives ........... = A fixed amount
The bigger proportion of one drive results in a lesser proportion of other drives, also the bigger the absolute value is of one drive results in lesser absolute value/values of other drives.
Can you confirm the above is incorrect?

Ibrahim

THERE IS NO PERFECT DOG....Period!

Then...it's the job of the owner/trainer to develop your dog's drives (potential)...

For dogs that don't pocess the natural High Prey Drive need to be developed more in Prey...And so inversely Defense Drive...

For dogs that don't have the Prey Drive you want...Even dogs that have good Prey Drive...You need to develop it...I have seen and trained many dogs that don't have the Prey Drive that I like or even want to see so this dog can be trained with some ways that require Prey Drive...

Every dog has Prey Drive...Just to different degrees...So you can work with them and bring out the full potential of this dog...

I think it's a real mistake of many...usually new trainers...to think every dog is the same as their last one...or the one that someone else has...

Prager is absolutely correct in that you must develop any dog's drives...It's up to you as the owner/trainer to make your dog the best they can be...This development is probably the most important or stage in a dog's working life...I also think this is the hardest part for any novice trainer...It's the part that so many trainers leave out and then wonder why their dog isn't working with High Drive in Prey or Defense...

Although dog training is pretty simple stuff...it still takes experience to bring any dog to it's potential...It also takes Patience...Patience and more Patience...

~Bob~

Hans,
I don't disagree with your above statements.  It seems the comments lately are critical of dogs with high prey and "sport" dogs.   To be clear, I do not mean you when I make my next statement.  These comments are often very derogatory towards SchH WL dogs in particular often made by those that have never trained a dog for SchH.  When I see the comments made by novices and others that have as far as I know never trained a dog in any venue talk about the virtue of high defense and the vice of high prey drive it bothers me.  It is concerning to me that so many novices talk about the "defense" in their dog and seem to lack the understanding of the temperament of the "total" dog.  This thread seemed to go the usual route of high defense is good and high prey is the devil.  Some have discussed the value of a balanced dog and that is what I was trying to do.  I like a civil dog, I like strong defense, but I need high prey, hunt, toy, etc.  For some that can not deal with a high energy dog or can not train a high drive dog, (which is also part art) then lower prey may be a good fit.  It takes a certain talent, patience and understanding to manage a high prey, high defense, high drive dog and they are not always the easiest to be around.  High prey does not always equal low defense.  Many sport dogs that excel at SchH or any other sport would also excel at Police work, SAR or Prison work.  Many would not; just as many excellent Police or SAR dogs could never be high end sport dogs. 

Yes, a dog with low prey and high defense has less value or potential to me than a balanced dog that is high in prey and high in defense.  You point is difficult to make because many people (incorrectly) view prey as an undesirable trait.  How many times have you heard people refer to sport dogs as "sleeve suckers" or not real dogs.  Or the WL dogs can no longer work because they are too overloaded in prey for sport competitions?  While that may be true for some dogs and some lines it is not true for every WL dog or every working line.  Who are the ones that breed to the top sport dogs?  When discussing the great producers of working dogs how many of those dogs were BSP or WUSV competitors?  I would venture to guess the vast majority had a sport background.  Sport dogs have been the foundation for the working GSD and keeping the working ability of the dog. 

With all that said, too much prey and low defense is also a detriment for a working dog but can be great for a sport dog.  Part of the issue with the "high prey" often "equipment fixated" dogs is training.  Too many people train only in prey and over develop the prey drive in bite work to the detriment of the dog's natural defense drive and civil nature.  I am currently working with a handler from another PD who has a high prey, equipment fixated dog.  Nice GSD, but it would concern me to have that dog on the street.  The handler is also concerned and travels about 2 hrs to come train with us.  The training approach with that dog is completely different and tailored for that dog.  Through several sessions of table work and muzzle work the dog is really starting to shine.  The handler is not replacing the dog as it is just not an option for his PD.  The  dog is really coming around and will now step over sleeves, suits etc to engage the man.  This took time as the dog had a strong foundation in sleeve and suit work.  I have worked with many Police dogs that others said to "replace or discard" as that is certainly the easier route but not always an option.  If a problem or issue can be corrected and not just masked I am very much in favor of correcting it. 

Funny, but like you I often find it difficult to get my point across on this forum.  For some this is "as clear as mud." 

IMHO, for Police K-9's prey is a critical component as well as defense.  I prefer slightly higher prey than defense but I want a dog with serious aggression as well.  This goes for my next SchH dog as well.  That is what I like!  IME, low prey drive dogs make poor working dogs.  There are some genetically low prey, low drive dogs and no matter how many years you put into them you will only bring out so much.  No matter how much you try to polish a piece of coal it will never be a diamond.  High drive dogs are a pain in the ass at times but I don't mind one bit, they are worth the work and aggravation to me. 

Wow..... you are great Jim, since long time I havn't enjoyed a thread like this one, diamond shines beside its mates, Slamdunc and Prager are both shining diamonds, I am happy to be a member in same forum that has such people.

As a student of dogs, their nature and their breedings, I think one factor that is being ignored when talking about drives is the nerve strength.  The ability to cap the drives when not needed and ability to settle down completely, while being at 200% when on-the-job for however long it takes. 

The lack of nerve strength is what leads to the drives leaking through (the drives don't have the underlying foundation to be capped and/or chanelled), and the dog is literally highly strung and bouncing off the walls, 24/7/365 for no good reason, and some "sport" folks seem to consider that a good thing, based on what I hear......and over time, with sport-oriented training, strong nerves are never the first thing on people's mind when deciding on breeding choices.  Once you lose the nerve strength, nothing will get it back.

Ibrahim and Paul, thanks!

  Ibrahim that made me laugh! Clearly you must raise your standards: I am no diamond.  I am much more like granite, old, sufficiently hard, relatively common, often useful and able to be polished to a certain point.  But no where the brilliance or the value of the diamond.