I think treat training is cruel. - Page 24

Apple, my point, also.
Besides, the way I see it, if the dog is doing what you need him to do, like goat herd control, what difference does it make if he's working for " him self" or for me?!

Using the video of my dog, Otis, doing the goat herd control for me...I can tell you he is absolutely working for himself...he loves being aggressive no matter if it's towards a human on the property or goats or horses.
So I USED his aggressive propensity for MY gain...to keep the goats off me, the other person pouring the feed, and off the gator! And he got to flex his muscles and set the goats on their heels....was very satisfied with himself when we were done.

And he did not need nor even look for a pat, ...it was just job well done and satisfaction for dog and handler.

Baerenfangs Erbe:
Not sure what you mean with fighting but I never had a dog fight me during clicker training

that's not related to training but rather to nature of particular dog.

What are these new type of dogs you refer to that are not equal to their ancestors?

Anything that motivates a dog can be used as reinforcement. I have yet to have a shaped behavior fall apart. My dog comes out of bitework to pick up a crutch and goes right back into bitework. That's HOW strong the behavior is. Because he understands the only way to get back to bitework is by picking up that crutch, so I actually used bitework as a reiforcement in order for him to learn that he has to pick up that crutch, anytime, anywhere. Doesn't matter what we are doing. Why? Because bitework is one of THE strongest reinforcements there can possibly be.

 

Same thing with secondary obedience. You teach a dog that he's got a choice. Make the right choice, get a bite. Make the wrong choice and he'll have to turn of the pressure.

 

Why is it so hard for you people to understand the very principle of maker training and that basically anything that motivates the dog can be used as reinforcement.

 

Bloodhound, pulling his 70 year old owner all over the place. With a little negative reinforcement and marker training with (trailing and sniffing as a reward) the dog learned to walk on a loose leash. In the beginning we used leash pressure and food and then later on, the environment itself became the reward. Walk nicely and you get to sniff the ground and do what you were bred to do - leash pressure, lets go walk nicely on the leash, and you get to sniff the ground again...

 

ANYTHING, virtually anything can be used, from peanutbutter, to bitework, to a crinkly botte, to ball, the environment itself, interacting with the handler or a mere pet (if that's what the highest level of motivation is for a dog).... and you can use negative reinforcement to get true reliability. Just because we have evolved in training does not mean we have weak dogs. Heck, I'm way in over my head with my one year old in protection. I have to be smarter in order to avoid conflict because I KNOW what it looked like in the past. I KNOW how hard he already is. Corrections? Forget about a small prong in bitework. And he's just one year old. If I use compulsion there is just way too much conflict and I'd be unable to handle the dog the way I need to be able to handle him.

So the notion that people use marker training because dogs can no longer handle pressure could not be any further from the truth. It's a way to go around conflict and actually build a GOOD relationship with your dog.

Otherwise, marker training wouldn't be used to train Zoo Animals to perform all kinds of tricks useful in daily life. Like giving shots, taking blood etc.

 

Hundmutter, thanks for taking the time to respond to my previous post.

apple: There is no way you can objectively determine if a dog is "working for you." That is not even something that is part of a dog's mindset because they don't have vocabulary. It is something you project onto your dogs because it supports your training beliefs. How is using the Premack principle any different than reinforcing with food or a toy? The goal is for the dog to reliably respond to obedience commands, which are learned behaviors. Learning is enhanced via positive reinforcement and the stronger the reinforcer the faster and better the dog learns.

Prager. Again stop telling me what I believe you are obsessed with that. If you disagree tell me why. Do not worry about my knowledge and beliefs.
And to your points - I absolutely can determine if the dog working for the handler. There is nothing new about it. Packs of canines and other animals including orcas for example work for and with each other for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and they most definitely have vocabulary.the cooperate with each other during hunt and communicate by voice ( howling for canines.) they know perfectly well where the other members of the hunting pack are and they coordinate their attck on prey . They work with each other, this is just a small example.

I told you why I disagree. You cannot know what is in a dog's mind, you can only assume. Orcas might be able to communicate with each other by vocalizations, but do your dogs tell you what's on their mind.

apple:
What are these new type of dogs you refer to that are not equal to their ancestors?

overwhelming amount of today's dogs bred for show, sport or just to fill pet purpose.

Baerenfangs Erbe:
Anything that motivates a dog can be used as reinforcement.

ok. in given case main motivation for the dog is to take over leader status.

Orcas in packs have absolutely no correlation to interspecies cooperation, such as humans and dogs....totally different.

apple:
Orcas might be able to communicate with each other by vocalizations, but do your dogs tell you what's on their mind.

you're right, dogs are lacking vocabulary abilities but as i mentioned previously, they do have well developed ability for communication and self expression by the means other than spoken words.