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bladeedge

by bladeedge on 16 January 2019 - 13:01

Competitive aggression ๐Ÿ˜‚ . Higher drive with cause frustration which if not released appropriately can end up in handler aggression .

by apple on 16 January 2019 - 13:01

Prey drive is predatory aggression. These dogs have such high prey drive that if they are blocked from satisfying their prey drive, frustration aggression kicks in. By the breeder not selecting for aggression, be means defensive aggression due to the risk of flight. If his philosophy is a joke, he has a lot of contracts with the police and military and his dogs are in very high demand. He got out of GSDs because he couldn't find enough really good ones with the required nerves and health to satisfy his contracts.

by apple on 16 January 2019 - 13:01

Here is a link to the breeder I am referring to.  Listen to him saying a police dog doesn't need aggression to apprehend or be civil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3geKKwXaE

by duke1965 on 16 January 2019 - 16:01

risk of flight is dumbass reason, a prey dog without courage has as much chance of flight as a civil dog without courage, that is really a NON valid explanation,

secondly, I agree that there are some dogs that have such high prey/posession, that they will grab anything, but that is only few percent of all dogs working in prey, I have one or two here now like that, you want to see what happens when you throw your jacket away when they are ten feet away from you, coming towards you for a prey bite !

 

the best dogs for LE are balanced ones, good prey, good courage and good agression

 

for mike suttle to say a policedog doesnot need agression, is setting up many people and dogs for faillure, he is a good breeder and trainer, but he should explain more clear that it needs more than normal or even above normal preydrive to function on the street, so a lot of people will not think that any dog that will bite a (hidden)sleeve or suit is police material


by apple on 16 January 2019 - 16:01

I think the people Mike supplies dogs with know his dogs are more extreme in prey and hunt drive. They also know he is very particular about his dogs being very confident and having very strong nerves, so the issue of a prey dog going into flight is a non issue. From his perspective, most of the dogs he has tested that were defensive and civil in the sense of being defensive, failed his tests, including running a lot of the civil/defensive dogs. I agree that for a GSD, a balanced dog is best. The dogs he breeds are extreme in drive and have other traits that allow them to be successful on the street.

by duke1965 on 16 January 2019 - 17:01

do you think everybody reading your post or watching Mikes video can see the difference between a preydog and a prey dog

I test maybe between one and two thousand dogs per year, and believe me, prey dogs going into flight is a serious issue, furthermore, nerve issues in preydogs when not triggered into prey is a HUGE issue, especially malinois and malinois mixes, the ones mixed with terrier and dogge breeds are doing better in that perspective 

furthermore, I have lots of respect for Mike, both as breeder and trainer, but most people dont have his knowledge as a breeder and as a trainer, but copy his quotes and believe all preydogs are policematerial, while in reality, maybe the top 5 % of preydogs is,

even you are producing quotes that are unrealistic, like a prey dog going into flight being a non issue, as that happens every single day, but it looks like you believe that quote, just because mike says so

by apple on 16 January 2019 - 17:01

You are generalizing my comments. He is very picky about his breeding program. I never said all prey dogs are police material. I said the type of nerves he breeds for minimizes the chance of flight. I'm sure he washes some dogs out and some he sells are washed out. So I am not talking about most people or most prey dogs, but dogs from his breedings.

by ValK on 16 January 2019 - 17:01

apple, you again trying to talk topic you're not familiar even in general terms.
there were Eastern breeding system, different from Western one mainly in respect of being non commercial (hobby based). yet, there also were division on civilian breeding and military breeding. but even joined amount of military and civilian kennels was minuscule, perhaps single digit of percentage to amount of commercial kennels in the West. leave alone well established mighty SV lobby and perception/habit for particular western type of GSD among general buying public.
after reunification military facilities were dissolved, shrinking the breeding segment to only handful of civilian breeders.
do you really believe they did have chance to win highly competitive market?
as for "dogs were destroyed", well, that another internet myth.
at DDR border were used so call "wall dogs" and actual patrol dogs. when each patrol dog were  scrupulously selected, well trained and assigned to handler, wall dogs was in fact the failed dogs who didn't qualify for patrol dog role. their work was only to make lots of noise when someone approached prohibited zone.
patrol dogs were rehomed mainly by their respective handlers. for wall dogs campaign for rehoming was held and seems majority of them was taken by general public. in any case, these wall dogs wasn't the stock, to use in breeding

b.t.w. i don't got what you tried to demonstrate by video with mali? 
playful dog hanging on hidden sleeve and being petted for this. so what? internet full of similar demonstrations, seems mainly with purpose to be sale pitch. 

Jessie you're again comparing dogs to humans :) 
nevertheless, if number is correct it's shamefully low output. at border also specialized breeding was used but on average half of dogs did pass the mark suitability.


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 16 January 2019 - 18:01

When a thread starts moving faster...sometimes it is hard to answer or comment on what each individual is saying specifically...as it is posted. So I’ll just start here again...

Valk says:
Jesse you're again comparing dogs to humans :) 
nevertheless, if number is correct it's shamefully low output. at border also specialized breeding was used but on average half of dogs did pass the mark suitability.

You know Valk...I kind of do. Because I don’t see a lot of difference between humans and dogs. We are astonishingly similar, if we rip off our ‘social’ masks and get down to brass tacks of our base emotions (if we leave aside our constant need to fool ourselves with ‘rationalizations’ to make ourselves look better when we look into our own inner mirror.๐Ÿ˜)

Also, we are a biological species too....maybe that is a “golden ratio”...the 7-5% of a species has the genetic chutzpah to be just that bit better (in whatever) than the rest of us 95% are.

The advantage with dogs is that we are allowed to TRY to bred them according to traits that we might deem as desirable.

We don’t do that with humans yet. Some have tried in the last century, but didn’t get too far. LOL.

Even with breeding, you still have a lot of wash-outs, although maybe a bit better odds for only a while though. Even good breeding won’t last forever until a bottleneck appears. It is just the nature of the genetic dice roll.

by apple on 16 January 2019 - 18:01

Valk,
The point of the video is that a dog can bite without equipment (civil) without being a dog with high defensive aggression.

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