Sportism - Page 4

Deleted off topic

Western Rider

Susie:I do have another definition though:

SPORTISM: Sportism is training of IPO dogs which uses sport approach as a foundation for IPO training. IMO opinion it is a good approach because it establishes permant default ( setting ) on equipment preference. This is the first thing we want to do if we want the dog to not harm people.

 Hans: IMO sport generates default to target equipment that is one of the biggest problems in PP/LE dogs. 

Susie: This kind of training doesn´t say much about the temperament of a dog ( it only says that the dog in question does have at least medium preydrive ), but a stable, well tempered, "civil" dog will be able to switch between the drives, and it will do so, if need.

 Hans : Switching between the drives ( prey or defense)  has nothing to do with concept of training a civil dog.  Civil dog is a dog which tagets man, in prey or defense. 

Susie: A "civil" dog without prey drive ( the German Shepherd dog historically was a sheepherding dog, and a sheep dog needs preydrive to do this job, globally said there is no hunting and no food without prey drive ). It´s all about channalizing the drives into wished behavior.

Hans: Again if the dog is civil or not has nothing to do with what drive he is in. 

 

Susie: I made the perception, that well tempered dogs are able to learn the difference between "training club" ( equipment ) and "real life scenario" ( to target people ) pretty easily.

 

 Hans: For "the dog to learn the difference  between club situation and street"  is possible and I am turning sport dogs into civil dogs all the time. The problem with such dogs however  is that they tend to prefer to target equipment over man especially in stressful situations of real street encounter. You may be familiar with video of shooting and killing of a homeless in Albuquerque NM where such  dog targeted  some stuff on the ground instead of  the man and that caused the man eventually to get shot and killed by LEs. There were many other reasons for that however this one was a major one. There are other situations like that which are quite common thus to say that it is 'pretty easy" is  quite deceptive. The problem with dog who is linearly trained from sport to civil dog is that such dog   for rest of his life prefers equipment - if available- over a man. Thus my point then is to  train dogs where such equipment preference would be non existent. 

 Susie:The major goal for the German Shepherd dog has never been to be a PP dog, but to be an "allrounder", a breed able to do almost anything, but not necessarily the best breed for everything... 

Hans: OK .....? Being "allrounder" includes to be PP/LE dog . Since human lives are  on line such genetic predisposition demands optimal  training. In my humble opinion sportism is not optimal training approach  for such purpose. 

Prager Hans. 

 

 

gee:
Susie said I "made the perception, that well tempered dogs are able to learn the difference between "training club" ( equipment ) and "real life scenario" ( to target people ) pretty easily"

Think you are a million miles of the mark with that one Susie, it's not a training issue - it's a genetic issue.


Susie said - The major goal for the German Shepherd dog has never been to be a PP dog, but to be an "allrounder", a breed able to do almost anything, but not necessarily the best breed for everything...

Susie long before terminology such as PP was ever used, the GSD circa thirty plus years ago, had the ability/ prescence/back bone to protect, and still be a well balanced companion/pet, it's what made it singularly one of the most popular breeds in the world.

I am not saying by the way - everything in the garden was perfectly peachy, but I am saying the all rounder you are describing was on every street corner, and was a trusted family guardian.


Unfortunately for many current day GSD's, those traits are no longer built in as STANDARD - as I am sure you are very aware.

Regards
Gee"

Hans: Yes! As a matter of fact today sport mostly frowns on natural protectiveness and defense drive as a fault. that is major contribute of a sport which leads today to destruction of the breed. And it is not just SV but all other major sports like KNPV French ring and PSA . where some aspects of defense are still preserved like during guarding of an object and so on which however is still prey drive since guarding of the object ti really guarding of a prey.

Prager Hans

Gustav, you are generally correct. But there still are good GSDs as a matter of fact better then ever if you know where to look.

Prager you are looking in the wrong places for dogs. Yes you find more sporty dogs doing sport and more pet dogs in pet homes....well DUH.

A good ideal GSD should be capable of doing sport or PPD. PERIOD. Their only limitation is what venue their handler chooses to pursue.

If training a dog with equipment during it's foundation (grip work and targeting) limits the dog's ability to be civil later there is either a serious genetic limitation with the dog or very poor training. There is absolutely no problem with doing sport foundation with with a pup and later progressing to civil work. If you have a good dog and GOOD TRAINING, the transition will be seamless.

Read the OP, apparently not....you got a bad case of sportism and according to the OP you are destroying the breed.

I will give you a video of a decent bitch with good training. Here is the transition of an IPO dog with a sport foundation to civil work and man targeting.

 

https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10201399591616274/?l=231726178241027394

Same dog, man targeting.

https://www.facebook.com/melanie.howe.77/videos/10202259196865868/?l=8096405492493495855