Middle of the road dog? See what u think? - Page 5

WOW..Lots of different opinions and takes on this post, but then I expected that. But in today's world this is my ideal of a GSD that is somewhere in the middle between the top showline and the extreme working dogs. He is a very nice male. I have worked with some of this breeders working dogs and they are excellent. The price of puppies is high but she ususally will deal with people who work and train for whatever sport etc. Eurosport has trained here at times even with their top stud Galant.

I will add that using the term "middle of the road" is just a catch phrase and does not mean the dog is just average etc... Means here is a GSD that has nice conformation, Nice drive etc.. What the DOG is not is perfect according to what a Showline person might want nor a extreme working dog. But for alot of people I would think this is a very nice boy!

Hi - I own, train and handle Andy Snezna Rieka. He is every bit a working dog and I just retired from a working handler. He does narc, tracking and apprehension with a vice like grip. He has gone in 1.5 years from solid police work to AKC RN, RA, HIT, CD and UKC Grand Show Champion, #5 German Shepherd in the US (soon to be #3)for the entire year of 2006, he is SVV1 rated, is currently being trained in Mondio Ring (his owner - Me! goofed up the last trial) and is an outstanding working dog with a pretty face. He is well within standard and outstanding in tenacity, biddability, loyalty, versatility and I love him as much as any dog I have had. He is not dog aggressive, and not sharp but can take on any person (real threat or training) and bring them to their knees. I have had Mondio Ring decoys (these guys are no slouches!!!) say that is the hardest hitting GSD they have ever caught. then he can go right back to being a house dog and an outstanding show dog. We just finished a show this weekend - Group 3 & Group 2. As for me, I'll take it. He is what I have always wanted in a GSD. $3500 a pup? sure, if we ever sell any of them! we want them all! Do you know how hard it is to find a working black/red? Thanks for all the nice comments and for even talking about him. He is a marvelous dog! Oh,did I mention? OFA good / normal @ 4 years of age. Malinda Julien American Working Dog Judge UKC Judge #6705 www.archangelgermanshepherds.com

This is the dog I have talking about when talking of the "Golden Middle" and " Perfect GSD" Is this not something we should ALL strive for ?? I know it's what I'm going for !!

Echo, I do understand what you want in regard to "golden middle". However, I think often times it is forgotten that when you(does not refer to you specifically, but all breeders) breed a litter, even top hard working dogs, you get a few "middles". Why breed for the middle when it happens naturally? Why shouldn't everyone breed for the very best working ability? Again, I say too many show line breeders breed for the "Golden Middle". Through this process, occasionally one shines through, but the majority don't. Look at it this way... You make some grape Kool aid, and I make some grape kool aid, we both make it differently, then your batch gets added to my batch, or vise versa. Eventually, the stronger tasting kool aid becomes watered down by the others kool aid. That can take time, and can take just as much and sometimes even more time to get the strength of flavor back. Especially if everyone likes more watered down kool aid. Finding a stronger kool aid to add to the lessened one, is difficult. In this day and age of GSDs, it is a lot easier to find a dog to temper the breeding than it is to boost the breeding. So, ultimately, golden middles can be had, they are naturally occuring in litters, but don't breed for the golden middle, that just lessens the breed. If everyone breeds for a golden middle, we won't have very many strong, true working ability show line out there, they are already on the edge of becoming black and red retrievers.

See everyone has this missconception that I am suggesting folks breed a substandard dog, That's not it at all I would NEVER do such a thing. the following would be my defenition of Golden Middle Golden Middle = Superior Temperament, Superior Confidence, Excellent Structure, Excellent Health, Standard Body Size (medium body size),Perfect bite, correct tail set, perfect eye color, perfect pigmentation, Excellent Hips/elbows (normal), EVERYTHING PERFECT (or as perfect as we can get it) and I know I've left alot of things out here, I'm just trying to make the point. See my golden middle to me is the Perfect GSD in every way, Striving for the Best in every way. Including Drive and Structure, These dogs NOT need be extreme! NO Extreme Drives No Extreme Confirmations Golden Middle should be the PERFECT GSD in EVERY WAY !! Golden Middle should be the WRITTEN STANDARD GSD in Every way !!! Including Drive AND Confirmation/Structure. I'm not sure why everyone think the Golden Middle must be a Substandard, If that were the case I would agree with you on the Kool-Aid thing, I'm saying just opposite, Stop going extreme and make the PERFECT Kool-Aid, I don't like it watered down at all Yuck, But I also don't like it so strong you can't drink it !! MAKE IT RIGHT !! So all can enjoy and not be "poisioned" by it. Too much drive has lead to a dog the average "pet" owner can not handle... Too much angulation has lead to all sorts of issues... Stop going extreme eighther way and get back to PERFECT PER WRITTEN STANDARDS. Does that make any sense ?? I would think the captain is turning summer saults in his grave with what has happened in these Extreme breeding programs. Crazed dogs that can't live with families, and showlines that can't/don't do the work (not all but I'm sure there are some who lack the drive) This is NOT what he had in mind !!!! He developed a Working partner/Family member/Appealing to the eye, PERFECT DOG We have made it so strong in several directions and essentially "poisioned" (by going extremes.) Too much has poisioned everyone. Get back to perfect and make it so all can drink.

Definitions of certain terms and such are different from person to person. My criteria for a gsd is different than others, as others is different from mine. The standard is there as a bench mark, anything less than the standard is undesireable, anything above the standard is often times deemed better. Depending on which part of the dog you are comparing to the standard. The issue still remains, that the majority of show line breeders breed for the conformation and not as much toward the actual necessary working ability of the gsd, as per the standard. We really do need some of the extreme working ability in the show line these days. Without it, we are going to breed the working ability further out of the show lines, and there isn't much more to give up.

"The issue still remains, that the majority of show line breeders breed for the conformation and not as much toward the actual necessary working ability of the gsd" (Deeswolf) Questions - How have the sport and work demands changed since the inception of the breed? How many show people are actually out there proving what their dogs can do? Is it the dogs? The training? The handling? The goals?

Ohh I agree absolutely, But same could be said for the workingline folks breeding for NUT Balls !! and your right too, in that owners don't typically have the drive to see they're dogs succeed to they're fullest working potential. I do beleive the sport of Sch, at higher levels wish to see a more crazy drive dog than what is "typically" appropriate in the family home, I beleive this is a "wrong" way to promote drive, These dogs were/should be being bred for "stable temperaments" including drive, so that they can "still" be approprite in a home with small children !!!! some call it the ON/OFF button, ok go with that, these dogs should posess the drive necessary to protect his family yet turn off and be appropriate with children playing on the floor with him. Not so crazy that they go out on field rip an arm off then come home eat the couch, burry the kid, shred the cat, and go out the window.

... I think that sounds more like nerves and not "drive". I'll take all the "drive" any dog can dish out... it's the nerves that worry me.