The real dogs - Page 5

Point taken. We have a saying here about strong dogs. It is "show it to me when he is four" The secret will be obedience and calmness. We have a couple of other dogs like this and you just have to work through it at their pace calmly. These dogs self load so bringing up the power later is never a problem. This work I got from a club in Winnepeg where they do great work.

Oh and I forgot to add something so not to take away from the relationship that Preston was talking about and that Zeus and his owner share. I watched them just hang out for a while in the back yard and you could tell he loves the dog and the dog dies to be with him and make him happy. I dont believe they get to spend much time together but a stronger bond I have yet to see. I really want a real male that wants to please me like that. It would make training enjoyable.

REALCOLD NO DISPUTING BUT I THINK AFTER 2+ YEARS OF YOUR ADMITTEDLY GREAT PROGRAM AND FROM WHAT THE OWNER SAYS ABOUT WORKING HIM WITH "AS MUCH PREY AND FUN AS POSSIBLE" AND THE DOG STILL MORE THAN ANYTHING BULLIES THE MAN FOR THE MAN AND WANTS TO TAKE THE MAN OUR GUYS SAY THEY HAVE RARELY EVER SEEN IT. OTHER DOGS GET BUMPY PUSHY OR MATERIAL POSSESSIVE OVER A SLEEVE OR PREY ITEM. THIS IS NOT THAT. WE HAD A HELPER WORK HIM HARD, REAL HARD TRYING TO SEE IF HE COULD FIND COMFORT OR A RELEASE AND HE CHOSE TO FIGHT THE MAN AND KEEP UP THE FIGHT. I THINK THIS COULD BE REAL DANGEROUS FOR THE HELPER AS THE DOG GETS OLDER AND STRONGER.

GSD First we do not work him in just prey as he would treat us as his throwaway bitch. Either drive if worked too much overloads him. Clarity with him as all dogs is the road best taken. You could be right on the last part as he is sometimes scary if not worked for awhile. Also sometimes he gets too comfortable and we will wake him up. Of course this brings a heighten sence of awareness to the helper. You must realize that a home training field is just that and he as much as the handler have a comfort zone that is condusive to learning. That having been said, he will always show more on another field as all defensive strong dogs will. His genetics are not there to quit. This dog has very strong drives for tracking where you could skateboard behind if he was left to his own devices. Pino has done some great work in trying to slow him down. Now to his pack drive(obiedience) it is amazing. A sch3 on a dog with hardly a correction. This dog and handler have a love affair that is something to see. ANA please e-mail me your ph. # and I will talk to you as I am not good on this machine. thanks Bob

ANA - not everyone has the responsibility or even the desire to own what you call a "real dog". That doesnt mean they can't enjoy sport work with their dog. If every person who did schutzhund, or even played around with it, trained their dogs to seriously engage with 0 equipment, and really be out to hurt that person, I shudder to think what a danger it would become. When you own that kind of dog, you have to be so much more responsible, so much more watchful, so much more realistic with what you can expect from them. And it's not only training, either, it can be the dog themselves. I recently sold a puppy and advised the owner to NOT do any kind of protection with him. I am concerned about them turning on a switch they won't be able to turn off. People like us can enjoy our "real dogs" and take pride in owning them...but still understand they should not be owned by just anyone.

KCzaja I ditto to everything you said as I posted in the past saying the same. In past posts I am sure ANA will be responsible with puppy placement. Just so you know ANA I also will be breeding to Greif. I have a strong titled ring sport female coming from France in the next few weeks and she will be bred to Greif in her next heat in March or April. No pet or sport homes as the pups will be trained for security concerns. In general I would be real careful with where I placed this males puppies but everytime I hear about him his great temperament and handler willingness is always mentioned so as long as the pups are worked and exercised and ANA is cautious I feel it should all work out. realcold or Bob keep up the great work. I read your posts and concluded you were the Training Director but did not realize you did the helper work as well. This goes to say even more. I never even heard of Thunder Bay until early this year, so safe to say for me Greif put Thunder Bay on the Map. In honesty, I think he's doing the same for You. After reading ANA's post that is the fourth time I heard of a club considering bringing in Zeus' handler and Training Director (because they know he is a new handler and was obviously helped). I think the American Fad or preference now for DDR dogs for more realness and defensive intensity has created a big demand from people who don't know how to properly handle or train these genetically civil dogs. You sound as if you have had quite a bit of experience with these dogs and I think there are opportunities to help train others the way you did Greif. Most sport clubs have no idea how to properly train or handle these dogs and before you know it some real problems happen. I read your comment about their "love affair". I am sure Greif does not have the same love affair with you and considering the goals You or he have for the dog and how he could help you in the future I know I would reconsider continued helper work in the future and find another helper. Just my thoughts. Mario

Thank you Mario for the kind words. This may sound like B.S. but he is very easy to work in protection as the helper does very little. Mind you , you must pay atention if pressure is bieng applied. I will once again state that he has no handler agression. I have seen much more from weak dogs many times. Bob

I myself just joined this site to add a few words about Greif and Bob. I am of the opinion that there are many great dogs but there are few that are exceptional and represent all the traits one would hope for in a German Shepherd. Greif is exceptional. I had an opportunity to see him tested at 20 months of age and I can tell you he is the highest I have seen tested for a)Olfactory discrimination, which speak volumes to law enforcement, SAR and sport(tracking). b)Food Drive and c)Natural,not fear oriented, Civil aggression. My coworker is now enroute to collect semen for AI to two of our breeding bitches as scheduling conflicts would not allow natural breeding. The dog truly is a perfect breeding specimen. Bob I will echo congratulatory words as well.I would also like to give the handler his due praise. Your training program for this "real" dog in his "sport" world I would say has been perfect. People say "Show Me" or "Put it on the Field" and to give the dog, handler and you credit--You did and I hear all 4 titles were done very young and very strong. I am not sure what the next steps are in the sport world but Mario is correct about this dog bringing You as Training Director great praise and visibility. I will say Enjoy the Ride. I am sure this is only the beginning chapters in a long book with this dog and very few people get the opportunity to truly enjoy their accomplishments. I hope You, the handler, the dog and your club all find time to enjoy your successes and enjoy the attention this incredible dog is bringing to you all. Paul

Hi all, Just wantted to add my 2 cents worth I have 2 females they are sisters both are show line and both have incredible drive. One female is really friendly but will bite if i am not around and will also try and attack anyone if provoked. the other is more calm but never would ever let anyone in the yard if i were not around. But if I am there no problem unless they do something strange or if they do anything threatending. Their mother sits there and stairs people down she studdies people and if they are not ok then there is no way she will let them anywhere near the house but she is not a very barky dog. Even though they are show line dogs they have great protection instinks and i would have it no other way. but They are also friendly and will play with people they are stable normal and clear in the head it is so important for breeders to breed for correct temperment. Jessica

OK I am writing in to apologize. I read about Greif and had to do my checking around and found out it was Greif vom Elbsandstein. I looked at the lines and if you know lines he has some good dogs in there. He also has quite a bit of German high line which were strong. Way back he has DDR all the way down which I like. I called contacts both here and in Canada because I keep reading about the REAL DEAL everytime I hear about a dog. I did not call anyone in Thunder Bay because I think they may be prejudiced to say good about the dog. By nature I am cynical and in this case I am writing to say I am wrong. I just had confidential video sent to me of a surprise attack on his owner when the owner was not aware (so they could see the dogs natural reaction by picking up on the spiked adrenaline in the handler)by 2 very intimidating big agressive men in protective suits and the dogs reaction, attack and defense of his owner blew me away. It is a 12 second video and all you would ever need to see to remove any doubt from the most critical skeptic. This is a real dog. This is a real strong dog. WOW. People say they have seen strong dogs and have the REAL DEAL. You see this dog and he will change your mind. On another forum I read about his Director and his outstanding work with this dog and I do agree and apologize for being cynical about him as well. You must have started him young, real young to make a sport dog out of him. You deserve your kudos. Explain calmness in whichever way you wish. I saw the video and spoke to people who saw the dog and calm was not a word anyone used. Once again, Job well done. Bob, I did read that you had some problems with your own dog and his present TSB rating. Is it genetics in your opinion or did you use a different program with him? Sean C.