Quite Disturbed... does this happen often ? - Page 6

(continued from previous post) It would be unreasonable to expect a breeder to be able to take back every puppy or dog they ever sold all at the same time--and it also is unreasonable to even suggest that this would ever happen. Would there be occassions when it would be inconvenient for a breeder to take a returned dog back? Sure...but it wasn't an inconvenience to take the money that was handed over for that dog, was it? Not enough room at the home place? There are boarding kennels aplenty that can house the dog for a fee, until you've been able to free up some room or make other arrangements for the dog. Kennel won't take the dog because it's not current on it's vaccinations? The veterinary clinic will board the dog in it's isolation ward, if necessary, and vaccinate it, for a fee. Oh, but there's the rub, isn't it--you'd have to actually pay out of pocket to keep your commitment to the creature that you caused to be brought into the world. Boo freakin' hoo for you. There have been some communities in the US that have considered charging a significant fee to anyone who wishes to breed dogs within the boundaries of that community, figuring that the revenue could be applied toward animal control costs. Personally, I'm in favor of it. I'm in favor of a State or community charging someone $1000.00 per year if they want to produce even a single litter. Want to produce three or four or even six litters in a year? Fine--pony up $5000, and then have at 'er. Nobody needs to go through the alphabet time and time again within their lifetime, so maybe if it cost some additional green, people would be a bit less likely to go into the endeavor with the vision of turning quick bucks with no responsiblity once the money changes hands. I've heard the motto, 'If you don't rescue, don't breed', and in a perfect world that would be everyone's credo. At the very least, however, anyone who is has a purehearted love for both the breed and the living creatures they are causing to be created will rescue that which they brought into being. If all breeders did that, then there would certainly be fewer litters being produced because of space limitations...but there would also be no need for any other breeder to rescue, because everyone would be tending their own garden. I'd love to see breed rescue groups cease to exist because there was no longer a need for them...

Statistics are in 2003 43,938 GSD's were registered with AKC, 46,054 in 2004, 45,014 in 2005. Currently Petfinder is listing 6,873 GSD's in rescue and shelters. There are probalby at least that many more in shelters that do not advertise on Petfinder. If you think they are all junkyard dogs, take a look.

I could not agree more with Hexe and Blitzen. In my 8 years of running a GSD rescue organization by myself, I have helped place about 450 GSDs. About one third of those dogs were actually in my custody. I can not take in more now because I do not have a steady income. In the past, I spent as much as $21,000 per year out of my own pocket to provide vet care. That sum is in ADDITION to the money I spent on food and the time I spent on training, and evaluating potential adopters. At least 40 % of the dogs I have dealt with were from known bloodlines and known breeders in my state. In all these years, the breeders here talk big, but when it comes to taking a dog back, I only know TWO who actually have done so. I can not even estimate the number of GSDs that I have not accepted into my rescue program, but for every week that goes by, I receive anywhere from 3-7 emails and phone calls from people who want to dump their dog. More often than not, they have a lame ass reason for getting rid of the dog and when I talk at length with them, find that they are not people I would have ever considered selling or adopting a dog to. It is also interesting to note that a SINGLE person involved in my state with GSDs has EVER mad a contribution to GSD rescue. One breeder who breeds at least 10 litters a year says on her website how she donates the proceeds from one pup from each litter to GSD rescue. Balony. And when one of her clients gives up a dog, who do they call? I would love to stop doing rescue for ever. At the moment, I have, all but for the rare time I have to take a pup from one of the shelters who know they can not place the dog in an appropriate home and I can. Why? Because I can say NO to any potential adopter. I reject about 50% of potential adopters because of a variety of red flags. The bottom line is that few breeders who breed multiple litters a year are responsible. Why? Because there simply are not enough good homes for good GSDs. GSDs are not simply rugs that give kisses. They need intellectual and physical stimulation, training and socialization. Oh yes, they also need a commitment that they will have a home, forever. To breed and sell without those parameters being seriously considered is unethical, in my opinion.

German shelters are no-kill shelters. Also very few males in Germany get neutered... the cost is pretty high and it is just not done as readily as it is done in North America. Relatively few bitches get fixed, though more frequently as males because the average pet owner does not want to deal with heat cycles. There are German breeders who have been through the alphabet a few times, even get second kennel names under the spouses name, and still their dogs do not end up in rescue or shelters. And again we are at the issue why it should be ok for a breeder to foot the bills yet it is perfectly ok for an owner to avoid any inconvenient bills - so instead of paying for boarding when they go on holidays or any time they have a temporary need to place a dog ie because of a move or health reasons, just unload it at the breeder. How many of these GSD in rescue are quality bred GSD? When I look at these sites I see a lot of GSD mixes and of the ones they call pure bred GSD there are many I would not consider quality bred dogs. I used to be in Rigebacks and there are lots of them in US based Rescues as well, not so many in Germany though quite popular and lots of breeding without papers or dissident clubs going on there. Lack of owner responsibility was pretty clear in Germany too after the dangerous dog law came into effect a few years ago. The shelters got swamped with the dogs that law applied to, because many owners did not want the extra hassle. That has eased off since and only owners ready to deal with it have such dogs these days. If you make official breeding costly then you will only promote breeding under the table, with even lesser quality dogs, or encourage the commercial puppy mills, who run as businesses and will never be affected by such rules, to fill that niche. Comes down to owner responsibility. As long as you place all the ethical burden into the breeders lap and give the irresponsible owners a slap on the back of the wrist your excessive rescue problem will not let up. Yes to Hodie for needing to select buyers carefully. Sad fact remains though that those you turn away will still end up with some dog somewhere else and be as irresponsible with it as they want to.

I have not bred a litter for nearly 12 years. I simply don't enjoy the many responsibilities entailed in dealing with the pet-buying public. Even when we carefully screen puppy buyers, who can be assured that homes selected will be good and permanent. Let's face it: most of our puppies are sold to PET homes--like it or not. Yes, it's true that the potential buyers that we turn away will buy elsewhere. I can't be responsible for other breeders--many of whom use bitches as "breeding machines" for all of their reproductive years. It sickens me when I hear of breeders seeking and selling their older bitches (and males as well) to "RETIREMENT HOMES". My only female is 10 years old, spayed, and will remain with me for the rest of her life. I have never made a cent from her. Unless for a very SHORT period, I am in no position (in terms of either space or finances) to take on any more dogs. Personally, I couldn't afford either boarding costs or additional vet bills. Are we also to place similar lifelong responsibilites on the owners of stud dogs?? (continued next post)

(continued from last post) Frankly, I'm not too sure about the motives of some GSD rescue outfits. Scenario: a local "breeder" (has only her 2 training dogs) rescues an abandoned, young healthy, poor quality female and calls a large GSD rescue outfit. She is told by rescue to take the bitch to the pound to give the owners a chance to claim her. My friend also places ads in the hope of finding her owners. However, the pound apparently does not want the liability of placing a dog from a breed with potential of being labelled as vicious, houses her in an isolation ward, and schedules the bitch for euthanasia--saying that their behaviorists have found her to be of unsound temperament and unsuitable for adoption. No one claims the bitch, of course. Her rescuer cons ME into posing as the bitch's owner and bailing her out. So, I went back to the pound kennel and said (with all the joy and enthusiasm I could muster), "Why, hello Heidi (the first name that came to mind)--how are you?!!" Bless her heart--she jumped up on her hind legs to greeted me like a lifelong friend. So, I bailed out poor Heidi and returned her to her "rescuer" who eventually found her a home. End of story--but not an experience I would likely be able to pull off in the future. Louise

It will have to be a very unusual situation for me to take a puppy back. The puppy is the buyer's responisibility. I will help the buyer find a new home for the puppy. Or I will take the puppy back if the buyer pays two months boarding up front. If I find a home for the puppy before two months are up I will refund the money back. I will help the buyer, but I am not going to take on his responsibility.

Thank you, Hodie and Hexe, for taking the responsibilty of finding homes for the unwanted of the breed. You know it's all well and good to say - we breeders are not responsible after the sale..............what about buyer responsibiity............I'm not taking back any dogs, not up to me. However, what do you say when that buyer refuses to take responsibility?

In answer to DH's question as to the 'quality' and breeding behind the dogs that end up in the hands of breed rescue groups--they represent the full scale, from the basic 'backyard' bred, no titles or hip clearances for generations on end...right on through dogs that were imported from some of the most respected kennels in Europe, both working and show lines, whose tattoo numbers prove their origin and who often are dumped at the shelters with their SV registration papers right along with them. One particular dog I pulled from a shelter on his last day was not only a working-lines import, he was also fully trained in narcotics detection...yet we were never able to track him to his last owner, because the paperwork was never transfered, so things dead-ended on the other side of the Atlantic. It wasn't until he'd been nursed back to health (he had been starved to the point of cachexia, which takes some time to reverse) and he was evaluated by the Coast Guard and accepted into their program that the discovery of his prior training was made--they thought they were getting a green dog, and found that they had one that was ready to go to work for them, already proficient in all of the drugs they had been planning to train him on. The dog was called "Dutch", and a somewhat edited version of his history was included in a book that was published a few years back on the subject of rescued dogs who were given a second chance through placement in various types of jobs. Hardly a 'junk quality' level of dog, both in terms of breeding or training. I know that Germany's shelters are no-kill, but will the veterinarians there agree to put a healthy dog down just because the owner doesn't want it any longer? Or do they refuse, and direct the owner to one of the animal shelters? How long does the average stray dog or owner-surrendered dog remain in the German shelters before they are rehomed? In the US, the shelters are always full. Space is always short, and while there are more and more no-kill shelters on the scene, the fact remains that some of them still euthanize because of space issues, and many of the no-kill shelters become 'warehouses' for dogs that will never be rehomed, and will spend the rest of their natural lives confined to a kennel run and limited mental and physical stimulation. Some people suggest that such a life is even worse than a humane death, and there is a degree of truth to that notion. If there weren't so many irresponsible dog owners, then the shelters would not be so crowded, that is true. But if there weren't so many breeders willing to sell dogs to people who clearly aren't willing to make a LIFETIME commitment to the animal, those irresponsible dog owners would have a much harder time getting their hands on their next 'throw away' dog.

The breeder that I bought Ben from only breeds German import dogs and will *buy* back a puppy/dog that they bred for ANY reason at any point in the dog's life. Their concern is for the dog, not for their business. I am much too emotional to be a breeder... I would take the dog back. However, I can definitely understand both sides. It is shameful that these deadbeat buyers can't be more responsible. It has been difficult for me to get used to having a biting, peeing, helpless baby around here. But, he has become so dear to me that there is no way in hell that I would ever give this dog back. Hip dysplasia, if that occurs, will be dealt with by the best surgeon we can find. In only the 3 1/2 weeks I've had him, I can't now imagine my life without him. He really is the sweetest, funniest, smartest animal you could ever imagine. I may breed him after he's titled just to have one of his puppies. By the way, I saw my name mentioned in an above post.. this forum has been invaluable to me! So, I see that there are professional breeders and hobby breeders. The more emotional ties one has to their breeding dogs, the more likely they are to take them back - or so it seems to me. There should be a database *of* customers *for* breeders to consult before selling their puppies. That way, a breeder who is concerned about placing a puppy with the best possible parents can avoid people that other breeders have had problems with in the past, ie - returns. This shouldn't be too difficult to create. My two cents.