Top Breeder Ethics - Reply to Wienerau - Page 4

HD is the problem of the SV-Zuchtwart, along with his breeders. They can not expect customers to pay for their mistakes, but must take their responsibility. Good hips are ”a must” for a dog, just like the suspension is for a car. Without an impeccable suspension, the car will not function. “Shit happens!” is a breeders’ excuse I can not tolerate. And which NOBODY should accept. Instead of competing with Indiana, I have to walk this crippled poor sob around the garden. You're telling me the breeder doesn't give a sh¿¿?

Please feel free to manipulate whatever you think needs manipulating. Controversial discussions must NOT be censored in any way. Everybody has the right for an opinion. You just don't have to agree with it. But you can't tell people to shut up. There was another thread in which somebody asked to remove something. Later, one could see people did actually LEARN something from it. Do me a favour Saoa, and let this thread take its course.

Hi Jantie, please don¿t get me wrong again. I accept your opinion and it¿s nothing wrong with the fact that you post it. Remember the big wooden sign in our kennel: "Jeder macht seins" And if you feel for fighting for what see is your right, go on and good luck. The way I see things, some can agree with staying with old unwritten rules or let¿s better say traditions in Sheperds and some don¿t. And only the future will show which way is gonna be right. Please believe me, I don¿t blame you or anybody else for trying make the world a better place. But I ask you to accept that I and perhaps some others don¿t wanna go out and chase windmills. Believe me there are a lot of things in the SV I¿d loved to see changed, too. But in the end, the only thing I wanna do is breeding Shepards, even if I know I¿ll never even get near to Walter¿s success, I still wanna do my very best. By the way, I believe the best solution for breeders and buyers is to accept sending back the dog after the pre-x-ray with six month and pay back the puppyprice. Then I can decide what is going to happen with the dog. If the hips aren¿t far to bad look for a nice family and if the hips are to bad, put an end to his pain. And before anybody now starts blaming me or any other breeder for being a cold person, I cry every time I¿ve to take a dog to the vet and put him to rest, doesn¿t matter if it¿s an old (like my old companion Hayos who died with 13 years) or a young dog. But it¿s something you have to accept if you want to breed. Sad but true. Best Regards Micke

I again appreciate your comment very much, thank you. Good thinking Micke, I mean it, and what a great suggestion it is! Now everybody knows the SV to be the biggest "Rassenhundevereiniging" of the world. Why is it, this suberb suggestion of yours, has not yet been put in place? It must be very easy, for breeders and "managers" of the SV, to write down and define what can then be used as a salescontract, honouring and respecting both: wishes and needs of the breeders AND wishes and needs of potential customers. Now this cannot be TOO hard, can it? Do note, that their are several (good) attorneys in the SV, that could make a blueprint of this "contract to be" in minutes. I know some of the most celebrated kennels of Germany are reading this forum (Norbert Schleuter together with his daughter Melanie, to name only one), YOU of course, with links to many other famous people, no doubt about that, and many more. I am convinced you all could make the suggestion to the Vorstand of the SV for a standardcontract to be implemented asap, one that needs to be used by all breeders of the SV. Of course this contract would initially be for the sale of puppies, but noone would prevent the authors of this contract to make another one for older dogs and breeding females etc. I know very well the SV is a huge association and it always takes a lot of time to get new things runnning, but I am sure this "contract" is worth debating for. Other races have shown the way, and I believe the German VDH already has one, or has at least tried to implement one. It definately is worth striving for. In my opinion, a contract should have been mandatory long time ago. It's strange such a huge and famous organization is trotting behind.

"that their are several" Sorry! Correction: please change to: "that there are several" and: "runnning" into "running" Sorry about that. Doing my best to respect the language.

Hi again, Jantie these contract won¿t be done in a few minutes. It will end in contract with at least 100 pages that you as costumer will have to sign. There is the "Diskussionabend" every year in Viernheim and this year there ws a Prof. Dr. vet (can¿t remember his name) holding a speach about the problems with the hips. You have to remember and this is a proven fact, you can compare HD with cancer. It¿s carried in the genetics, but it has also a lot to do with how healthy you are living if you get cancer or not. It¿s same with HD and Sheperds. It depends on what or how you feed your dog, at what age you start training the dogs, what kind of floor your kennel has and probably you will 100 different reasons more. Which then will end in breeders having a costumer to sign a contract telling him very narrow rules, how he/she has take care about the dog, how and what to feed, how and when to train etc. and if you as a buyer than want your money back, you have to prove that you have done all these things due to the contract you signed. A small exampple: there is a famous watchproducer from Switzerland, nice plasticwatches (I affraid to name the brand, but I guess some off you might know what I mean). They give you a guarantee for their watches but if you have problems and want an exchange you¿re asked to read the smallprinted. And there all exceptions are written down and you¿ll see in 99 out 100 times you won¿t get a replacement. And I guess that¿s what¿s going to happen to Sheperds too. In the end everybody has to decide on his own which way may the best solution for the future. To my mind, it will only produce more problems and the only winner will be attorneys specializing on problems like this. But this only my thoughts and I don¿t expect everybody to agree with me. And talking about a discussion: you don¿t have to agree with every arguement but you have to accept people having different point of views. And even I don¿t to hide in the past, I¿d still like to qoute my stepfather one time here: "Du kannst nicht jeden Menschen lieben, aber Du mußt jeden als Menschen respektieren" Perhaps somebody can translate this Kind Regards Micke

X-ray's DO NOT LIE! I think most breeders on this list are ethical and honest! BUT if there are breeders out there that are not honest and there is a situation such as this, what can or will the SV do about this? If the SV is very strict in it's breeding practices they should investigate. Is there any contract that is signed when purchasing a pup in Germany? There should be. It would be in writing. All bases covered, PERIOD!! My grandparents(European Born) and parents always taught me growing up, that your word is your bond. A handshake or verbal agreement is as good as a written contract. Jantie should have a replacement. Welcome back Wienerau. Do the breed proud and continue the fine tradition of breeding good dogs! Regards! Dawn

Hi Dawn, thank you, I¿ll do my very best in future. But now back to Janties problem and this thread. If x-ray don¿t lie or not is not the question. If there is a contract that¿s tells you from a-z what to do I guess there be more probs. But you are right, a handshake counts as a written contract to my mind, too. But I don¿t want to make a contract where rules are written down, how a owner has to take care of a dog. Perhaps a potential buyer knows better ways then I have written down in a contract and he gets perhibited to raise the dog in his way. But I still fear that will be the end of this story. Soon there will be contracts that tells every buyer what and how to do. Do you think buyers will accept a contract like this. Compare it with a car you have bought. If you don¿t take care of it the way the company wants (e.g. changing oil on your own) you loose any kind of warranty. You have to understand that we have a different of common sense in Germany than e.g. the States. Here you can¿t sue e.g. a Tabacco-company because smoking can cause cancer. Everybody knows smoking is dangerous. Or you can¿t sue Mickey D because you have bought a hot coffee and you spill it over your lap while drinking it in the car. Neither can you sue a producer of a "Micro-Wave" because there isn¿t written down in the manual that you can¿t dry an animal in it. Everybody knows that. The question is how much reglementation do you need or want. And read a manual today, that¿s what then going to happen to Sheperds, too. Is that really what you want? Speak to the breeder and if you don¿t feel safe than don¿t buy the dog. And Dawn, the SV don¿t have the time nor the money to investigate things like this. They have to spend all the time and money in court, as they have got sued by a bunch of people. And what kind of replacement do you think there should be. It can only be moneyback as there can¿t be a similar replacement (which warranty means in the end)for a living animal. Every dog is a different individual even dogs out of the same litter. To my mind this problem is much bigger than some might think. Regards Micke

Jantie, if you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for this dog as a pup??

In the US all those I know who are breeding and selling large breed dogs represented as show/breeding quality also warrantee/guarantee that the dog will be eligible for an OFA number or a clearance by a veterinary radiologist. Otherwise, breeders in the US will not be selling puppies to experienced buyers who are interested in showing and breeding. In the US, only novices buy show/breeding puppies without guarantees. It seems like many in the US are very gullible when it come to having to have an imported dog considering that there are many breeding the same bloodlines right here in the US. I suppose the Europeans are smiling all the way to the bank. Most of what I'm reading in response to this thread is how no one can control HD in their dogs. Most of us already know that and, frankly, it has nothing at all to do with the topic. The question is what should or should not a breeder guarantee for a puppy represented as a show/breeding prospect? If those in Germany are charging low prices for their dogs and offering no written contracts and one knows that up front, then it is buyer beware. If the dog is dysplastic, a cryptorchid, whatever, one is not going to get a replacement. When you add all the extra charges for shipping, taking the dog to the airport and all the other things that get tacked on to the bottom line, I don't quite understand why anyone would buy an imported puppy in this day and age. Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen people on this board and others who are breeding very good GSD's right here in the US. Yes, they are charging more for those puppies, but they guarantee them in writing and in the long run no one is saving one cent by importing. Using NZ's in breeding programs is not helping to reduce the incidence of HD in this breed. Other breeds have a lot less HD than they once had due to only using dogs with normal hips and and by paying strict attention to the hips of the siblings and the production records of all close relatives. Yes, I know that some of the best dogs have NZ parents or are NZ's themselves and I understand why some still defend breeding those dogs. Even so, using NZ's is not a good thing for any breeder looking to reduce the incidence of HD in his current generation and in generations to come. It cuts both ways.