something different from your herder drive set - Page 2

This thread really illustrates the difference in how WL's and SL's are raised, trained, and evaluated.

Joan, the whole world knocks america.

But not usually using dogs to do it. The 'whole world' probably have a legitimate reason to knock america...your knocks just sound like sour grapes. You ever listen to the tapes from some big Czech kennel? Nothing but constant yelling from handlers. I've been around trainers from Germany...big loud yelling. The USA handlers don't have a monopoly on it. Gets old every time you have a petpive to lay it on the fault of Americans and breeders... Your videos are usually fun to watch, but the insults to Americans gets old.

I would only want that behavior on command with a silent que...  Been there done that, big mistake without teaching a special que of hand signal or command.  HUGH liability.  Nan

BTW, vk4, I've seen and owned dogs that would get so zoned, that they can't hear a command given in normal tone and able to respond. Also, some dogs are so soft, that I've seen trainers who need to desensitized their dog to loud voices in order to prevent them shutting down during the long bite when the helper is supposed to be loud. I trained with a guy from Germany and one from Brazil who actually test dogs' nerve strength by screaming in the dog's face while it is on the sleeve.
If there was only whispering going on during all training, the weak dogs would never be identified.

This thread or that video shows nothing about the difference in SL vs WL. Please stop it. It is an example of form of civil training that can be done with any strong GS that has natural civilness. And I have seen WL and SL dogs of this type. With good nerves, adequate handler/owner, and good training, these dogs represent the breed very well.

" Also, some dogs are so soft, that I've seen trainers who need to desensitized their dog to loud voices in order to prevent them shutting down during the long bite when the helper is supposed to be loud."

Wonder why someone would do bitework with a dog like that?

As far as this dog being a liability, if he were to act like this with no provocation or cue to do so, then yes he would be a squirrel and needs to take a dirt nap. However, that is not the case here. He is being worked in training session, and the OP said he gave him a cue.

"Wonder why someone would do bitework with a dog like that?"

Hunterjumper, to get the dog titled....can't breed them till they are titled and breed surveyed according to sv. Sv doesn't dictate HOW the dog is able to achieve said title. Training can overcome many faults, allowing titles to be earned. Remember, ipo is a TEST, it doesn't say you can't train for the TEST.

Few people strive to correctly bring out the civil side of their dog, if he or she has one, and that's actually not a bad thing, since there are a limited number of people who have any true need for a dog that really is civil in the work, and even fewer who are responsible enough dog owners to ensure the dog is never placed in a situation that will trigger an inappropriate display that could lead to the dog declared and ordered destroyed.

Unfortunately, there ARE a fair number of folks who endeavor to get their dog to show civil aggression but go about it the wrong way, aren't strong and/or skilled enough trainers to handle the dog safely, or worse yet refuse to accept that their dog simply doesn't have the temperament for that type of work and end up abusing the dog in an effort to bring out what isn't there.

joanro's right, however--Americans don't have an exclusive on the yelling commands thing...hell, when I was back in NJ, a young helper from Belgium who wanted to visit the US and to basically pay his way through by working with various clubs was with ours for a summer, and on the first time he came out on the training field and did an attack on the handler exercise, he let out a bloodcurdling, very deep, gutteral and primal SCREAM as he approached the dog and handler, and I jumped like someone stuck me with a hot safety pin--and I wasn't the only one, because no one expected it. Many of the dogs initially briefly flinched, too, but they all recovered quickly, and after that first exposure to it, the dogs either paid it no mind, or it served to only intensify their determination to get the helper. 

vk4gsd, I appreciate you sharing this training process with us all; it is both interesting and instructive to watch as all three parties learn together and the ebb and flo of each one's development in their respective roles. Thank you for that!