DDR, Czech and West Germany working bloodline - Page 11

First I would like to repeat that there is relative ratio in persents thus on 1-100 between these 2 drives and then I would like to say that there are absolute numbers=absolute amount  of these drives in a dog on scale of 1-10.  For example absolute amount of prey to defense  6:4 is 60: 40 is relative ratio on scale from 1-100 and so is  0.4 : 0.6.  I like to look at absolute  amount of drive on scale 1-10. 
I would like the dog to be somewhere between 4- 8 in absolute amounts. 
Certain (absolute) amount of  defense and  of prey is necessary to train the dog for different tasks. Above I was talking mainly about personal protection or protection work as such.
However if you are training tracking for example, then of course, you are utilizing prey (and other instincts) and you need to have it  in certain absolute amount of prey inherited in the dog in order to teach such dog such task and for the dog to then perform it in real life situation. I  am  absolutely not trying go to diminish prey.  I am just saying that certain dogs have relative ratio in favor of defense and  that such dog require different approach in training protection then dog whose ratio in favor of prey. I am also saying that many dogs whose ration is in favor of defense are often unjustly discarded from training as dogs which are of no use for such training. 
Prager Hans

There are dogs that are higher in defense or sharp and low in prey that can be difficult to motivate in certain tasks.  Some dogs that are higher in defense and low in prey are actually insecure and lacking in confidence and nerve strength.  These dogs go forward with aggression and many owners think they "have a hard dog" or a "really tough dog" or a "real dog."  Pushed hard enough these dogs will often fold like a lawn chair.  One needs to be able to distinguish the rare, serious strong defensive dog from the ones that are actually insecure and lacking in nerve and overt aggression is simply a coping mechanism.  Yes, they need to be trained differently.  The strong ones differently than the weaker ones and much differently than dogs with appropriate amounts of prey.  

A dog lacking in prey and having higher defense absolutely needs to be handled differently and I usually spend a good deal of time developing and encouraging the prey drive.  It often results in a happier, better working dog with more outlets and release for stress.  For what I do with dogs, whether it is testing, selecting and training for law enforcement or sport work a high defense low prey drive dog has little value to me.  I test and reject too many high defense imported GSDs' that simply lack the ability to function under the pressure I put them under during testing.  I prefer the strong, confident, balanced dog with high prey and high defense with natural aggression or civil.  I like the GSDs' I see coming from the Netherlands and Belgium.  I deal with a vendor that brings in some really nice dogs from Belgium.   Balanced and strong that are also fairly social.  

To Slamdunc & Prager, how do you go about training a dog that is lacking in prey and having higher defense?  I have seen people post here that these dogs need extra encouraging to develop prey drive, so that part seems pretty clear to me, what about the rest? Is this common for DDR dogs?  If so, what lines? 

It depends on the dog and what you are training it for.

Any example would be fabulous.

momosgarage. I am not talking about dogs which are "lacking" in prey. I am talking about dogs which have more defense/protectivness then prey but still have enough prey to perform other tasks like searches or tracking. Your question  question is too broad . You need to say which training you are asking about.  In general the answer is chanelling of defense into prey and vice versa and/or  parallel training where prey and defense are developed separately/independently of each other but at the same time/level  of maturing of the dog. That is beyond the scope of any forum  though.  
To train dog for pp who has 0 prey( not many dogs are such though)  is possible to a certain degree and certain purpose.  
Prager Hans

Many dogs have prey but it was not developed in early stages of their life.  Such dogs then look as if they would lack the prey drive and are discarded from training. However not every body has the luxury and stone heart to discard the dog. If you have one dog and you do not want to discard him, there is a hope and skillfull trainer will resurect prey in  such dogs. It is not art to work with perfect dog.  
Remember prey is inherited and what the prey is used on or not used on  is learned. Thus if the dog learned  to chase cars of cats will not necessarily mean that he will chase a toy or a decoy. But he/she  may have a lot of prey drive. It is important to develop and focus this drive early in the life on the proper target. Proper target being what ever is the plan for the dog.   However if the dog's prey  is not developed   on proper target then not all is lost. You may be still able to transfer one target into another or awaken interest in appropriate target later in the life. This if done properly may be successfully but you need to understand that you may be always playing catch up and that the primary target will always override the secondary one. That is why, I believe there is better way to train a dog to do pp then to first teach it to bite sleeve. But that is a different story and I am not going to get into it here. 
Prager Hans

I would like to say that it is not art to discard imperfect dog in drive and to say such dog is difficult to work with and motivate it and then just  get different one. I love the challenge where such discarded dogs often from sport circuits or LE are corrected and placed often in LE or elsewhere. I would like to say that it pains me when good dogs are misjudged.  I have seen many dogs who were judged as unfit to work under pressure only to find out that the pressure induced was too strong or  too soon in their life and level of training. Remember if you want to be a trainer or if you want to train your  dog it is up to you to figure out if the dog is weak or if he was made that way or if he had not chance to be trained not to be weak and work with what you have to improve such dog. For example the courage is inherited but also need to be developed and trained. Some have no time for such approach   and to a degree I do understand that. But I have also learned that  many unjustly discarded dogs eventually turned to be better then dog which were perfect from get go. 
I am  saying this only because I would like you to be weary of trainers who tell you that the dog is not good and to get different one especially if it is them who is going to sell you such  perfect  dog.  
Now indeed there are dogs not suitable for some work and they need to be loved and taken for what they are. They too will bring you a lot of  often unexpected joy. I see people here are often  ready to dump a dog because it does not fit their original purpose and the excuse it that they can not keep more them one dog or that they can not afford it. To such people I would say then make sure that the dog is exactly what you want BEFORE YOU GET IT so that you do not need to dump it. 
Prager Hans

How did this turn into discarding dogs?

Your post inspired me.