KNPV trouble - Page 2

Perhaps the 'old guard' KNPV trainers need to rethink their methods, in light of animal activists and cell phones everywhere. I don't believe that one needs to resort to Draconian methods of dog training - essentially abuse - to elicit desired behaviours and be able to assess which dogs are strong and which are not. This is not to say that positive-only training works in bitesports due to the need for control, but setting a good foundation in training and introducing training concepts early as well as working with the natural drives of the dog will enable a good trainer to accurately assess the pup/dog. With the described KNPV training program of making the dog crazy in drive and then introducing compulsion for control, it is no wonder that one hears stories of imported 'police dogs' having problems in training over here or on the streets with control/out.

Valk, there are indeed ways to solve/not have conflict, if you start with a young puppy, which these guys in Holland do. They have a way of training for over 100 years that has not changed very much, so, your dog must fit the "mold" to start training for the program, not change the program to fit your dog.
I agree with that attitude as it does not water down the desired drives and temperament of the dogs to the point of being useless, but, there is no reason to treat a dog in some of the ways these guys did, especially in the past.

Apple, I am aware of the program, I know how they train and even though they may consider it a source of pride to own a tough dog, for me, I am not willing to go to the extremes in punishment some of these guys may go to.
A while back I heard of someone putting an E collar over the dog's heart, in the chest area, to prevent the dog from forging....all to get a couple of extra points...NO THANK YOU, never going to happen, not in this nightmare nor any other one.

Koots, the problem these dogs have here with control and with the "out" is not because of their training there, its because of the mentality here. Over there they out beautifully, they must in order to get certified, but, once they leave that environment and go to a dept for actual street work, all that control goes out the window.
Some of it because of training methods being used by LE agencies, some of it is because trainers/handlers here do not understand the type of training and the expectations in Holland out of these dogs.
The reasons why they dont out can get long and complex and it would take a long time to explain in here.

To me, the KNPV program is a double edged sword being one of abuse yet strengthening the gene pool. I'd say most of the dogs that get a PH1 and go on as police dog prospects barely obtain their title. So when referring to extreme compulsion for a few points, I don't know if it is because those points are required for a dog to obtain his PH1 or for those handlers that want to get on the podium. The podium dogs are rarely the strongest dogs and probably most don't end up becoming police dogs. I agree with HD that the smartest way to train is to avoid creating conflict and always be thinking several steps ahead to avoid conflict. Don't take shortcuts or use crutches to get quicker results in the short run because you will end up having to retrain with conflict in the long run. I train to have fun, as a creative outlet and for a sense of accomplishment and abusing my dog is not fun for me. The object guard is a good example of how the Dutch trainers get a dog crazy in guarding the box.

Hired - don't you think that the amount of drive fostered in the original training can impair/over-ride the 'control' training those dogs receive here? Without knowing how to maintain that level of control that was necessary to get the KNPV title, the dogs may resort to their foundation training of 'crazy' drive development, thereby creating conflict when it comes to the 'out'. It takes a lot of commitment to maintain the control necessary if the foundation training is all about drive, drive, drive, with control coming in later. Puppies' early learning sets the stage for their development and associations, therefore if the pup is taught drive and control via reward-based methods, these fundamental ideas will form strongly, making it easier to train as they age.

Hired Dog
i guess issues do arrive from a breeding selection, where foremost the prey been set to a level of exaggeration.
i firmly believe that mixing high prey and aggression makes the dogs extremely dangerous and for most part pretty much useless.
dominant nature of dog is a dominant nature and at some point the conflict is not avoidable, irregardless of dog age. all my dogs
did challenge me, albeit i was their handler from 5-6 weeks of age. for sure better if that happens earlier, than with fully matured
adult dog.
in any case, experienced with such dogs handler, can establish the rank once and for all and firmly direct the dog with respect and
no needs for punishment. typically dominant dogs also very much intelligent dogs as well and after accepting rank, they giving back
to a handler strong loyalty and respect.
in case when such dog did got into inexperienced hands, conflict will turn into permanent/never ending.
in KNPV situation described by apple, most likely issue arise from breeding, mentioned by me at beginning. lots of aggression and
prey but full absence of brain. dogs acts exclusively on impulse by an instinct and permanently in needs of harsh correction.

Valk, with real dominant dogs, not wanna be ones with nerve issues, I find that they are much easier to deal with if you have respect between dog and handler and that respect is not earned through submission of the dog or beating the dog or being abusive with it.
It comes from making a dog understand that there are rules and boundaries that must be followed at all times and that you as a handler are fair. It means that the dog always knows when the "hammer will drop" and for what reason.
Again, this is when one starts with a puppy, with an adult, the same rules apply, it just takes more work.
Confident dogs do not just challenge a handler simply to challenge, there is an imbalance in the relationship and the dog is looking to fill the void.
So far as prey drive and aggression, both are needed for street work and both have been covered here before.

Koots, thats just it, these dogs do not have the control here that they had across the pond. For some reason, police agencies think that a dog does not need that much control nor a verbal "out".
This can be because they want the dog more focused on keeping its drive up and being able to fight a suspect or because of lack of training or experience.
Look at a KNPV dog during training or at certification, 100 feet away from the handler, outs with one verbal command.
Look at that same dog here 6 months later having to be pulled/yanked off a suspect...the so called "tactical out"...
That same dog that heeled off leash with no problem now stateside cannot walk down the street on leash heeling...
Like I said earlier Koots, the problem is multi fold and because there is no National cert in the USA, agencies pretty much do what they want.

Hired Dog
that's exactly what going to happen during determination of "who is the boss" - physical and mental oppression with purpose to submit to own will and clarify who is stronger and smarter. you cannot verbally reason to the dog, who physically trying to submit you to it's own will.
but as i mentioned earlier, it's must be done once. otherwise the conflict could turn into permanent.
different thing when the dog acts impulsively due to overwhelming instinctive motivation. it's not conflict for leadership but rather conflict between dog's nature and handler's goal and desire.

Valk,
It is not an issue of high prey and aggression being a dangerous combination. The KNPV Mal X’s tend to be extreme in prey. We have one in our club and some of the video sent before our club member bought him showed the dog, who was about 95 pounds, come in so fast he almost knocked the decoy out on the stick attack. He is not a dangerous dob and his new handler has done a great job of just getting the dog doing well at the static and moving heel with no electric or extreme compulsion, but with food. The dog will never have the control and ability to think and compose his drive that he could have because of the KNPV approach. They maximized his genetic prey drive and then fried him with electric to out. His aggression is primarily prey/predatory aggression, active aggression and frustration aggression. He is not a defensive or dominant dog. There are very few Dutch breeders breeding the old style dominant, defensive dogs. Van Leeuwen is one Dutch kennel that breeds for such a dog. Most Dutch breeders of Mal ax’s are breeding for dogs that are highly social and confident with great nerves and extreme prey and hunt drive because that is what the market wants. The only advantage of the Dutch handler’s abusive training is what I have said. It weeds out softer or nervier dogs.