What do you see in this vid? - Page 4

Pedigree Database

 
Koots

by Koots on 09 August 2020 - 17:08

Valk - I don't want my pup to try to dominate me, and so far he hasn't, but for him to try & dominate the helper when he's mature would be a good thing in my books.  😉

I realize as a young dog his displays do not mean as much, but it's interesting to see his character and drives develop.

I fully expect him to challenge me/my authority at some point in his maturing process, but now he is very guidable/bidable.  😁


by Hired Dog on 09 August 2020 - 18:08

Wait, Valk, you equate this puppy to a dog that may or may not grow up to be dominant? I see this crap daily with my puppy going after the older dogs and keep pushing and pushing...in no way does it mean that my puppy will grow up to be dominant with a human who is fighting him.
It does mean that he needs to have his little ass kicked, just like the dog in the video does for being an asshole.
Game bred pits are VERY intense in the pit when fighting another dog and will hang on for hours, if allowed, but, they are very docile with humans.

Next, I have no desire to bring any interaction with my own dog to war. Yes, its my game, yes, I chose to play with the dog, but, I do not need to instill ideas in my dog's mind that should not be there.
There are a few things that are a MUST in his life, baths and nail cutting WILL happen, regardless of how much you like it or hate it...when it comes to daily life issues that MUST be done, breathing around here is optional and at my discretion.
I am also not looking to start any aggression problems with my own dog. My very first Malinois had been through 9 different handlers, I was the 10 and he injured all of them badly. He came into my house with the same idiotic ideas that he had in his mind from previous experience and it was not pleasant living with that dog. There were many "come to Jesus" talks between us and for the 4 years we worked together, it was always touch and go. Not again, ever!


by ValK on 09 August 2020 - 18:08

that's why i said - dominance isn't fixed value :)

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 10 August 2020 - 02:08

Koots, re the humping / dominance question:
I'm not one of those who deny that 'dominance' exists, but in this case I support everything BE has written in her post. Icon is lovely and very promising, but that does not mean he is not subject to those things which can happen with any puppy. He can get over excited; he can get over tired. In your video, the first thing I noticed about it was that he looked as though he had been well-exercised and played with before the camera was turned on. And indeed you confirm that.

Like any other puppy, and sometimes older dogs, this state of mind can translate into what I think of as 'bossy' behaviour (not a lot to do with true Dominance in any species); puppies of both sexes can use humping as an outlet. It certainly isn't fully sexual (which might make one lean towards true dominance if it was), because dogs using it frequently don't have a full testosterone-load (hence my current middle aged neutered male goes in for it quite a bit !). A 4.5-month pup is an example of this.

He will probably grow out of it; and if he doesn't, as long as he can be taught good focus on what you want him to do instead, it shouldn't prove to be a problem later.

 

PS Actually my older boy does display some 'dominance' traits; he is gentle with bitches, but neutered or not he can be very 'heavy' on other males / ex-males. This does NOT take the form of humping; it is displayed by neck-grabbing, growling, chasing - anything but trying to hump them !


by apple on 10 August 2020 - 04:08

First, are the sire or dam of your pup known for having the genetic trait of dominance and being a rank dog? Second, at your pup’s age, it would help to look at your pup’s dominant behaviors on a continuum from very submissive to very dominant. It appears that your pup rates at least above the middle of that continuum. Then you have to consider learning and handler approach such as what you are okay with your pup getting away with. In the hands of a novice, this pup would likely turn out very different from how you will raise the pup. Also consider that you are raising from a pup vs. the dog going to other handlers in the future which is about your relationship with the dog. Finally, genetic dominance is not that common. My prediction is that you don’t have a dog with true genetic dominance, but a dog who is above the middle of the continuum of submissive to dominance and that through good training you won’t have any issues related to genetic dominance, good or bad.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 10 August 2020 - 07:08

A true dominant dog doesn't need to exhibit humping behavior.

A truly socially dominant dog will not hump other dogs. I'm not even sure where all of that is coming from. It's generally the more insecure dogs that are constantly trying to establish their social standing. They might elevate themselves over other dogs but it was always the insecure dogs that constantly felt the need to show others "how strong they are". The ones that were truly dominant could have always cared less about what was going on around them.

My little ridiculously bratty female literally acts like your male puppy in the video. She's an asshole puppy constantly messing with my 6 year old strong male, who is actually a rather dominant dog. He quite literally, lets her get away with murder. She is constantly trying to get a reaction out of him. Does that mean my 7 month old female is dominant? No, she's not. She might be one day, but I don't really look at it as dominance, it's bratty young dog behavior.

The most confident and dominant dogs I've seen always carried themselves a certain type of way. Humping was never in a strong dogs repertoire. Humping is either done out of insecurity or frustration and overexcitement. :)


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 10 August 2020 - 10:08

Agree with that too BE. There is an awful lot of nonsense talked about 'Dominance', including a frequent misconception that humping everything/body in sight is a sign of dominant behaviour. IMO it can be part of a social expression used by a sexually dominant male, but only in the context that this is a physically ready (ie post 'puberty') male, is only generally 'off course' in the inexperienced  [ in that the experienced male knows what he is doing and where to aim his bits (!)],  and is not established in whatever hierarchy he is part of, so is still 'social climbing'. For which we have to know a lot more about the individual dog than one puppy video.

Humping on people / the handler is MUCH more likely to be excitement, rather than a specific challenge or the intention to 'take over as Leader'. How long it goes on or how much of a nuisance it causes depends on the way it is handled by the human 'leader'.

 

All social species have hierarchies. All hierarchies are subject to some individuals striving to improve their rank.  I have yet to find any of the new wave of trainers / behaviourists who have satisfactorarily explained, when claiming the 'Dominance is dead & discredited' line, just how the dog is entirely different in this regard, and does not ever compete for status.

 

 


Koots

by Koots on 10 August 2020 - 10:08

I didn't mean to imply that Icon is a 'truly dominant' dog, after all that would be highly unlikely to determine at this tender age.

My little ridiculously bratty female literally acts like your male puppy in the video. She's an asshole puppy constantly messing with my 6 year old strong male, who is actually a rather dominant dog. He quite literally, lets her get away with murder. She is constantly trying to get a reaction out of him. Does that mean my 7 month old female is dominant? No, she's not. She might be one day, but I don't really look at it as dominance, it's bratty young dog behavior.

He IS a bratty youngster, was always play fighting/tackling/biting my young female dog who let him get away with his antics and would throw herself on the ground to play with him. Now he only occasionally tries to bite or hump Thor - we keep them occupied individually - and his biting is mostly prey-driven frustration, IMO. But, Icon will still want to be first dog through the gate, the door, etc. so there is that behaviour. I think a truly dominant dog will be challenging the handler all the time, which is not the case here thankfully. Doesn't mean that he is not 'testing' the other dog, and will likely test me at some point when he gets older.

First, are the sire or dam of your pup known for having the genetic trait of dominance and being a rank dog? 

I am not sure about sire Rush, but did see the dam Abba and she seemed very balanced and highly guidable.   A few days after arriving in Canada from Europe, she was working on a film set with lots of other people, horses, etc., so needs to be very stable and bidable.

The most confident and dominant dogs I've seen always carried themselves a certain type of way. Humping was never in a strong dogs repertoire. Humping is either done out of insecurity or frustration and overexcitement. :)

At this point I would say it's not insecurity but overexcitement and/or frustration if those are the only reasons for this manifestation of behaviour.    I just find it curious that he tried to 'hump' the rag after 'winning' it, vs trying to 'hump' his female buddy.   He did this humping the rag/toy/bed before his female buddy was adopted by my sister, otherwise I would think it might be a 'displacement' behaviour upon the absence of that female.

Any way you think about it, I found the behaviour noteworthy enough to post here and generate some discussion/feedback, which has been quite interesting.  Time will tell what kind of a dog my pup will turn into, but with what he shows so far I expect he will do quite well in sport and be a good all-round GSD.   Thanks for the feedback, it's been a good read!

 


by Hired Dog on 10 August 2020 - 11:08

 


True genetic dominance, REAL dominance is rare. The dogs you see playing the dominance game are most likely spoiled brats that have never heard the word "NO" until they are 2 year old adults and then they have a fit...
I dont understand why anyone and that includes 99.9% of people would want a dog that displays true dominace.
Is it to impress others? Is it to be able to say that you have a dominant dog, so what?
In the sports circuit, they dont reward more points for dominance, so why have a dog that is dominant?
Does anyone thing that a truly dominant dog ONLY applies that attitude towards strangers, not his owner when it thinks it can or should?

Koots, I am not speaking of your dog, I am speaking in general terms because this puzzles me. Yeah, a puppy may display some dominant behavior around the house with the other dogs, but, unless you have lived with and experienced a TRULY dominant dog, you have no idea.
Dogs like that are not fun when pushed to so anything they dont want to do and you cannot make them. Dogs like that WILL take you out if you try.
Are you willing to live with one just to say that you own one? When was the last time you were attacked anywhere and you had to depend on your dog to defend you?
Does a bite out of dominance hurt more then a prey bite? Can anyone tell me for sure if your dog is willing to stay in the fight because its afraid for his life or its trying to dominate his opponent?
One of the hardest dogs I have ever seen would try to annihilate his opponent because it was afraid to get hurt and simply went all out when he had to bite...I would not want to get into a fight with that dog.
Some people believe that when you own a dog like that, the amount of violence you are willing to dish out in your "training" must overwhelm the dog so that it stays submissive to you....they are probably correct, but, how many of you are willing to dish out that type of violence once a week or when the dog needs it?
I know I am not, I know my puppy does not need it and wont ever have to worry abut getting it. He will grow up according to what his genetics have given him and what I put in him training wise.
I do not compete, I do not care about points, I do care about my dog and his daily normal life in the house and his interaction with the family and so far, I am thrilled.
Finally, even though I do not know, maybe when he is 2-3, he will protect his house and his people if the need ever comes up, so far, so good, but, only time will tell.

I typed this this morning at 4AM before work, I debated on sending it or not, but, what the hell....




 

 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 10 August 2020 - 11:08

Tequila doesn't hump Athos, she will bite him and hang off of his neck but hump the pillow instead. She'll have zoomies through the house, then jump on the couch and hump a pillow. Not him or me.

It's definitely overexcitement and frustration.





 


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