I think treat training is cruel. - Page 42

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by Prager on 09 December 2018 - 02:12

Baerenfangs Erbe and Hundmutter  I have really enjoyed your last posts!!!!


by Prager on 09 December 2018 - 03:12

JJ:Out of one side of your mouth you are now lately agreeing that marker training uses all 4 quadrants....and out of the other side of your mouth, you still keep saying is it just like “all positive training” and doesn’t show leadership. Well, which is it?

Prager. It depends on to whom I am responding. Some people ( not me) claim that marker training is positive only. So when I am discussing their point then that is what I am discussing. You need to do more than 'skim" over my posts to see what I am actually saying in the context of my post.
FYI I KNOW that marker training is including 4 quadrants that is why I am saying that it is not any different from Koehler who too includes 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. . As far as Susie disagreeing with me, to me she rendered her self as irrelevant. She will disagree with me if I say that water is wet. Thus all discussion with her is pointless.

As far as you writing on Negative reinforcement I totally agree. That is basic stuff and you said it well.

As far as your post on "opposing view" goes you have again, now famously, missed my point and that is that leadership position is best to be established during the first phase of the training obedience command. Which is Learning faze? ( phases are Learning, conditioning, practicing and working - in that order. If you train the dog the first stage with clicker then you are missing opportunity to establish a leadership position in that critical part of the training. Thus while many people are talking about leadership position as a necessity they are teaching it in too late. Which, in my opinion, is everybody who does not apply negative reinforcement during the dog's learning phase of training each individual command and IMO especially down command. Correct me if I am wrong but this learning phase is according to you non-pressure, non-stress and joyous. Thus all positive ( as in pleasant).

by duke1965 on 09 December 2018 - 06:12

Prager, actually, water is not allways wetClown


by Hundmutter on 09 December 2018 - 09:12

Now we have injected a little humour, I wonder if the following might give you all a bit of a laugh ?
Given the thred started about whether food in excess can be threatening to health, its value when coupled with 'modern' training, the length of time various methods have been in use, and a couple of you having mentioned in passing the raising of today's children ...
I was intrigued to find this section last night in the book I'm currently reading :

"Poor old Freddie was in such a gloomy frame of mind that I decided not to tell him the idea till we had finished coaching the child. He wasn't in the mood to have a thing like that hanging over him. So we concentrated on Tootles. And pretty early in the proceedings we saw that the only way to get Tootles worked up to the spirit of the thing was to introduce sweets of some sort as a sub-motive, so to speak.
"'The chief difficulty, sir,' said Jeeves, at the end of the first rehearsal, 'is, as I envisage it, to establish in the young gentleman's mind a connection between the words we require him to say, and the refreshment.' 'Exactly' I said. 'Once the blighter has grasped the basic fact that those two words, clearly spoken, result automatically in chocolate nougat, we have got a success.'

"I've often thought how interesting it must be to be one of those animal-trainer blokes - to stimulate the dawning intelligence, and all that. Well, this was every bit as exciting. Some days success seemed to be staring us in the eyeball, and the kid got out the line as if he had been an old professional. And then he would go all to pieces again. And time was flying."

That was written by P G Wodehouse, in 1925; it is an extract from "Carry On, Jeeves" (in which Bertie is trying to teach a two-year old boy to say "Kiss Freddie", to save his friend's relationship).

by Kiomak on 09 December 2018 - 14:12

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 09 December 2018 - 15:12

Dear Hans, since you are discussing my dog and I on your page so freely, how about you post a video of how you can do it just as fast IF not faster as you claim?

Also, what makes you think that just because someone uses a clicker they are not in control of their dog and have no established relationship?

Do NOT use me as an example of how you think a clicker trainer does not have an established relationship with their dogs to further your effing agenda! 😡

You could not be any further from the truth! If there is ONE thing I have it is one of the strongest relationships I have EVER had with dogs. I have grown up with the hardest dogs anyone can possibly imagine and learned very early on how to handle dogs. Having a relationship with my dogs comes as natural as breathing air.  

In case you have not noticed, I am disabled to the point that a slight pull on the leash can take me off balance and to the ground. I cannot afford to have dogs that are out of control, so don't you dare use me!

I have never needed an e collar for a recall on my dogs. I can call him of Geese, flying away right in front of him, cats, squirrels, he'll work with deer right in front of him. My Search Dog would stay on her search with deers running right in front of her.
See this? He was a year old back then. So for you to say that clicker trainers don't have an established "leadership" role with their dogs couldn't be further from the truth. Again, here a video.


Also ValK: you are still not getting it and will never get it. 

by ValK on 09 December 2018 - 16:12

Tough or hard dog, in my opinion, is a dog which does not give up easily to adverse pressure

i agree with that but in widespread perception it seems a "tough" does apply to dog's behavior which i would rather see as hard to control delinquent/errant behavior.

Also ValK: you are still not getting it and will never get it.



by Xeph on 09 December 2018 - 21:12

I read nothing beyond the first ridiculous post.

As someone who has certain dogs used for real work, I gotta tell ya, I don’t give a flying pig whether the dog is working “for me” or working “for food”. I care that the dog complies. I care about command retention.

I’m not going to work “for praise” for more than five or ten minutes. You better pay me with something I find valuable until the behavior you want is habituated, or else i’m going to flip you off and tell you to do the work yourself.

“Well then I’ll fire you!”

Go ahead. You weren’t giving me anything of value. I’m not the one losing out.

by joanro on 09 December 2018 - 23:12

@ Xeph....two great big thumbs up for your post !!

by Koots on 09 December 2018 - 23:12

Good to see you again Xeph - in all your glorious common sense!

How's your crew doing?

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