Herding Instinct Test - Page 3

who is zinah out of....does she have hearding in her back gound. where are you training now? do you have your own sheep. I am looking at getting some to keep here and work on here at the house but will still go and train on the large herd once a week...and continue to learn. Heather

The Great Pyrenees is a guardian dog not a herding dog. They are bred to 'live' with the herd of sheep and essentially become 'one' of them. When raised properly the sheep accept them as one of thier own. These breeds of dogs (guardians) are bred for the sole purpose of protecting the sheep against preditors. THey are not bred to 'work' sheep. It sounds like your dog who is a nibbler would be fine in herding. My herding dogs treat the young lambs much different than the older ewes. They are more gentle with them. The 'force' they use is equal to what is needed. sometimes this needs to be taught but many dogs adjust thier power level accordingly. Many times on the first, second etc introduction to sheep a dog will be more tentative. It really depends on the dog, how they have been brought up, things they have been taught etc. Thus having your dog just go through more of the 'motion' of a grip would be quite common. As the dog understands more what is expected, what they need to do, thier grips would 'grow' accordingly. When we take older adult dogs on sheep, many have been taught for awhile NOT to chase etc. Thus they may take longer to 'figure' out what is expected and allowed. Some dogs that have been really conditioned to NOT chase/use thier prey drive in this way will take longer. THey often think they are being 'set up' for a correction. WHen I first started herding my older male (working lines) was very tentative. He was 7 and figured for sure I was setting him up for a correction. It took 3-4 times on sheep before he 'got' it. He was fabulous. Had a lot of 'power' without having to 'use' it. He became the dog I took with me initially to move my very mean/stubborn ram. It would be really hard to accurately access a dog by one or two exposures to sheep. Yes, one can tell if they have good drives, what some of their instincts would be etc. However, this is not always accurate in the long run. I instinct tested a rough collie that was fabulous on the sheep the first time out. Second time..NOTHING. Just wanted to breed them. Owner has been trying to work with him for awhile to get more interested but the dog has NOTHING there. As the dog is already older (3) my advice would be....don't waste your time or money. Dog will never be a 'working' dog. If her only goal is to get a title or two, one may be albe to get enough out of the dog with the right sheep at the right time with lots more exposure. When I instinct tests dogs I am looking for several things initially. First, I want to see how the dog approaches the sheep. Are they thoughtful in their approach or crazy prey driven. I work them on line initially so that I can see how they will respond to me. Do they 'see' me in the picture or is it only about them and the sheep? Do they want to keep the sheep grouped or do they want to take one away from the sheep and take them down or corner them? When one breaks away do they go chase or do they try and bring them back to the group. Once I have them working a bit I want to see how they take to the pressure I will put on them. Do they stop, do they totally ignore me or do they take the pressure and 'work' with it.

Thanks Sierra, I have decided to pursue this because I liked the work so much and actually the people and dogs involved. If the dogs wind up not having the talent, we just learned something more and there is no loss. I do have another question though: In herding, do you have to be just as careful with whom you train with as in protection work? Can one actually do damage to the dog's psyche if it is done incorrectly? Or is it relatively safe besides potential physical injury to the dogs by livestock and or the physical work itself?

You know Sierra, I was thinking that about the Pyers, just didn't know if they could be trained to herd, never seen it. I think that anyone who instructs you needs to know what they are doing. I really like the lady that I work with and she has good stock and is very easy to understand without making me feel stupid....you know. If you are coming to the Dallas area I would highly recomend her, she is great.....and has the type of knowledge that Seirra is showing us now. Heather

If you are interested in reading more about the tending style of herding which is the purpose of the true GSD you may want to spend some time at Ellen Nickelsberg's site http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/ There is currently only one location outside of Germany where HGH trials are offered and that's in Northern New Jersey. I read with great interest of the farm in Texas which plans to incorporate HGH trials in the future. It is so important that we continue to utilize our breed in the type of work it is meant to do: tending sheep. GSDs act as a living fence keeping the flock inside a graze. Most of their work is the result of obedience to their genetics, i.e., their instinct. Few voice commands are given or required - quite often you'll see the dog at a great distance from the sheep herder and you'll observe the dog looking to the sheep herder for *permission* to engage in a particular action which the dog, because of his instinct and ability, finds necessary to take. The sheep herder may give direction to the dog now and then but really, a good GSD will work independently and act on his own initiative. For some photos of the HGH trial this past October please visit http://ellerbach.com/HGH04/HGH.html and also http://wantagetwp.com/images/hgh/HGHOctober92004/ . It is regrettable that there are so few training opportunities available in America for the SV style of herding. The AKC C-Course is an alternative but the flock is much smaller - 20 -30 sheep as opposed to the 200 required in a HGH trial. Additionally, C-Course is judged heavily on the dog's obedience to his handler's commands (verbal or by signal) and doesn't allow much for the appreciation of the dog's independence and the sheer harmony so very apparent in the relationship between dog, flock, and sheep herder. Truly, watching a GSD tend a large flock, watching him trot - often for hours at a time - with that energy-conserving yet ground covering gait a well-structured GSD has, seeing how he manages and controls the flock and how he knows to predict the flock's behaviour - it's a joy. Once you've seen it you'll know why so many of us are so very passionate about preserving the genetics and the structure of those dogs who are true shepherd dogs. But back to the herding instinct test. I've participated in three of them with two different dogs. One dog was tested under the AHBA guidelines as well as by a tending-style trainer, the other dog was tested just recently under the latter system. With the AHBA test, the dog and I were in a small pen with three sheep. I was to walk backward and have the sheep follow me while the dog was to be behind the sheep and drive them toward me. Aside from the fact that I'm a klutz and, not having eyes in back of my head I kept bumping into walls and fences, it was fun, somewhat embarrassing, and entirely useless as a test of a GSDs herding instinct. The second (and third) instinct tests were conducted by a tending style trainer with a flock of 200 or so sheep which were penned. The dog was on a long line and was essentially left alone. The flock's owner and I were inside the pen with the sheep. The dog (one dog was 10 years old when I "tested" him - strictly for somethng to do; the recent test was on an 8 months old male pup) circled the pen without having been told to do anything. He just ran. At first he was much too fast and enthusiastic but he soon found his rhythm and fell into that awesome trot. He also learned that he can make the sheep move and *that* becomes the dog's reward. Yes, the dog was declared to have a very definite herding instinct, as he should, coming form a long line of HGH dogs, and we are working at developping this further. Ok - looooong post. I do get carried away when it comes to working GSDs.

Hi Sierra, Agreeable on that, and Thanks! But we did not have sheep, we had cattle. And our Great Pyrenees did heading work,not tend them. Just as the GSD wasnt bred to do Work for the Blind, nealry any breed can be worked ,and trained to do anything they were not bred for. Ever seem a GSD Quail Hunt with Bird dogs? Its all about environment that they are raised in.Ever seen a Newfie retrieve Goose? I have! Ever seen a Lab with a SchH title? I have ! Snicker Jerry

Thank you all who have responded to my post. You have given me a wealth of information. It is interesting, sometimes how our own dogs show us the way to go forward. Never thought I would want to do this but am always interested in dog stuff. Now I have a new hobby and as it looks two new friends in the area we will be moving to shortly. Gosh Het, that would be wonderful if the USA had another site where one can train for the HGH! I just enjoyed so much seeing my dogs smile. Sunny

I was so excited when she was willing to do it. We had talked about it when I went to test my dogs, as with the German confermation I need the title for showing, so she started looking into it and is now getting the sheep. She is a great lady, she is very good with my son too, he has a boarder collie and she is teaching him how to work her....two totally different styles and it is fun to watch. oh I have very funny pictures of me with my young girl and the testing. Here is the link. http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/draggahaushepherds/dharma_odin_fem1_2004.html Heather

Herding is kewl. My Am Bred male and one of my german line females were going.. my Am Bred did better than her LOL she has WAY MORE DRIVE than him, in regards to prey drive, which is wierd... i thought for sure we were having Lamb chops that day but she didnt try to hurt them... it was her first time on and KC had been herding "C" course for about 5 times prior with about 25 sheep, and he was really awesome... was the day he started.. its a bit of a high to see nature take over and all they have to know is to stay outside the border... for the "C" course anyway.

I think we will train for the A B C course when we are titled for the HGH, just for something to do. The female i am working now is a little shy, she has been yelled at for chasing the horses so it is taking us a little while to teach her it is ok. She is one the really wants to please and she thinks I am setting her up to get corrected. but we will move past this and do great. She knows the boarder and is doing great with that. so now we are moving into the big field with about 30 sheep. I can't wait.