A hint of "Garbage" genetics can make a very good dog? - Page 3

Pedigree Database


by ValK on 06 June 2019 - 22:06

Sunsilver what you advise is a big part of today's problem of GSD breed.
think for moment - if dog can be scared by yelling, can't hold up and can't recover from pressure, do not has innate confidence and need it to be built up, afraid the stick and threatening gesture... why that dog need to be trained to anything, beside basic obedience?


by Sunsilver on 06 June 2019 - 23:06

I see your point, Valk.

BUT...suppose you have a young recruit that's hoping to be a police officer, and on the first day, you throw him into a worst-case scenario where he's attacked by a big, bad thug and gets the crap scared out of him, even though (unlike the dog) he knows it's not a real-life scenario.

You think that's going to make him want to continue with the training? Even a dog with real aggression and tons of confidence is going to have to learn to walk before it can run.

I don't know as much about bitework training as I do about training horses. I DO know one of the best ways to ruin a good horse is to move it along too quickly with its training.

by ToneGJ on 06 June 2019 - 23:06

@Centurian/Sunsilver you've all been a wonderful help. I am keeping tabs on all information thrown my way!

@ValK: all of this is true but with my particular dog we do not know for certain. Again, I am a rookie. Most people who compete or are skilled at training working dogs, begin the process of developing drive/bite from the get-go. All I did with this dog up until 3 months ago was; walk 4 miles a day in 2 walks, play fetch etc. There is a lot of work to be done and i'm willing to put the work in. Even if he does not excel at protection, I will find other jobs for him to perform😁. 

Also, here is his pedigree. You can zoom in on the photo. https://www.instagram.com/p/Br6ntcPjTz8/?igshid=ijorufnlu6cz



by Sunsilver on 07 June 2019 - 02:06

Interesting pedigree! Here's a dog that has the same exact pedigree as your dog's sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2145727-brownings-black-gold

There are some very, very good dogs in that pedigree, and most of them are titled and hip scored.

The dam's pedigree - not so much. There is very little information on her, though if you go back far enough (REALLY far...) many of the white shepherds in her ancestry were animal actors. There's even a PATSY award winner, plus several of the Rin TIn TIn dogs, and dogs related to Roy Roger's Bullet.

There are also some of Dorothy Crider's white shepherds. She provided dogs for many movies. You can read about her here: https://whitedreamteam.weebly.com/breed-history.html

Many people frown on the white shepherds, because they feel people who breed for colour only breed inferior dogs, because they ignore other factors such as temperament and structure. I think some of the white shepherd breeders have done a marvelous job of breeding. They have a very comprehensive health index to track genetic problems, and they have avoided the extremes in structure that you see in many of the regular coloured German shepherd show dogs.


by Hundmutter on 07 June 2019 - 06:06

Antonio - on the question of 'white' GSDs - by all means read the article Sunsilver links, for interest; but please note that the article itself contains a line, in its first paragraph, which sums up the whole issue: "There are rumours and references to the breeding of White Shepherds without any proof about the truth of this story" (my emphasis) - and yet the article repeats ALL of them, happily spreading the sales pitch further through the breed's history.  Read with large pinch of salt.


And then to 'compare and contrast', take a look at the White Shepherd forum here; you can switch Forums to use those for other breeds than just the GSD Forum, if you have not discovered that already.


A big 'Thank You' to Centurian for an excellent descriptive post. 

(Even if it still has some odd grammar and typos, tee hee !)


by Hundmutter on 07 June 2019 - 07:06

Re the dam's pedigree : its really hard to find any of the dogs listed on PBD, even dogs like Kodiak's Eye Of The Storm that I have actually heard of (being in the UK limits my access to American lists). Its almost always the tail-female line that lets down a pedigree and throws in much of the 'randomness', because people STILL 'play' at breeding dogs and do not acknowledge the importance to the outcome of the bitches role in producing 50% of the genetic material in all matings.


by Sunsilver on 07 June 2019 - 08:06

Hund, thanks for your post. There's a lot we don't really know about the origins of the GSD breed, a lot of question marks that we will never have answered, because as you say, no one cared very much about the female side of the breeding.

And...whoops! I missed Centurian's post. Yes, some excellent input there. Our club uses an oversized tug for starting puppies, because it's easier to grip than a bite bag. It's about 3 feet long, and 3 1/2 inches in diameter.

I mentioned the dogs in the white GSD side of the pedigree not because they will have an influence on the OP's dog, but to show white GSDs WERE capable of accomplishing some pretty awesome things, and should not be considered just 'garbage genetics'. As wonderful as they were, these dogs are too far back to have much influence on the OP's dog.

by ToneGJ on 07 June 2019 - 16:06

Hundmutter(or Linda), it's the same for me. A lot of dogs missing on DAMs side. The kennel who did the breeding is Simpson's AKC German Shepherds, they are located far North here in Michigan. They do not adher to standards and just breed for $$(over $1500-$1800 per pup.)
Interesting enough, here is a photo of my pups grandparents that I found through hours of looking. His DAMS Sire/Dam:

by Centurian on 07 June 2019 - 19:06

Hundmutter .... thank you for for noting my mispellings with humor [ for some reason on my computer the editing at times gets mixed when I try correction at times and send ? .Not to mention it is an enormous chore to hit the keys correctly .

First , I want to make an important point : This is the type of dog out of all dogs that needs to be doing something and that is the reason I felt compelled to write for the readers and OP.

..... " can't hold up and can't recover from pressure, do not has innate confidence and needs it to be built up "...

Absolutely work this dog in bite work if you can : ... . A sense of accomlishment , do these not build character and self esteem ? For some dogs .. we know they will never be Rambo, but we can make them so much better by doing something with them . Years ago I used to laugh : Many decoys/helpers thought they were such great trainers. I laughed because it it so easy to work a dog that has 100% the innate , instinct to do something reflexively. Dogs that are like torpedoes - you practically , in a manner of speaking , don't have to do much . To teach a youngster Algebra that is a math wiz is not all that hard, but to teach a youngster to do algebra whor anything to get them to bite ! To have a dog bite well that is not so gifted , that is some acomplishment. I have a lot of respect for people like the OP . We worked many senstational , the cream of the crop GSs and some less in repsects, who were unsound GSs at that . Unless you had done this you may not be aware of the confidence , the self esteem , the character increase in these unsound dogs.. not to mention the fun they had. Each persons dog is a winner and worth a million .. simply because .. the dog is theirs and they belong to that dog !

There is a reason I choose a leather rag. It has a great amount of flexibility, literally and figuratively . You can swing it on a rope , as you are at a distance away from the dog that you are out of his uncomfortable zone. When the pup pulls on the leather rag it has greater movement than the tug. The rag bends and twists , which is quite is reinforcing to the dog as opposed to something that is stiffer. and does not give as much. If the dog does not bite well you can slide down the rope and have the dog readjust the bite and at that moment you can flee placing light pulling pressure on the leather rag to have the dog reflexively grip . It is easier to grip something flatter than to grip something 2+ inches round - and many new bite tugs can be stiff .

I do not give bites to the dog, as the helper did in the video . He literally stepped in and threw the item for the dog to bite. For this dog : It's better not to approach the dog stepping face on , depending on the interacting distance . We are always talking to the dog in our movements and with our bodies. ... ALWAYS !!! That can make the dog feel uneasy , [defensive]. Rather swing the leather rag from a neutral stance and position several feet away from the dog . Use of a flirt pole is good too . I want the dog moving to bite even if I swing the leather rag in an arc , pasting by very very close in front of the pup. Any movement forward from the helper to the dog at first do not do . Yes ,all this could be done with a tug - but tugs are harder as opposed to being softer and also the dog has to open wider. And that is not the sole purpose at this point. We want to get this dog more interested in biting and feeling better about what it is doing and hopefully with the same full bite but with a harder grip. When the dog has fun , most liekly his motivation will increase.

Win .... No wins here .....The dog gets nothing , unless he has earned it. If you pass that rag circle wise in front of him and he misses the bite.... To bad... If he does not bite full , you have to reset the bite and then after the bite is satifactory , run around with him . If the bite is really bad and as you bring a little back tension intending to have the dog grip and he lets go of the leather rag... to bad .. he lost it. No different than if he was chasing a rabbit and he had a wimpy bite , to bad He will learn to bite that rabbit if he wants to eat , won't he ? This is not about winning. Rather this is about teaching the dog the skills that will work for him . This is not a win / lose scenario. You are not personally challenging the dog and you are certainly not playing tug- o - war , whereby there is a winner and a loser. This is not a contest. However , taking something from a dog .. that is a whole different concept. In that secario there is a winner and a loser. I never ever ever take anything out of a pups mouth .. A tradeoff with something else like another toy or food treat , yes. But never pit yourself againsta pup or young dog by the battle of the wills. Again if the bite is not right , then handle the tug applying a little pressure puling from the miuth nand then let the dog rebitefull - at that point hands off and then tell the dog " good bite " and let him run with it in his mouth . He didn't win it , sort to speak , he earned it by biting the way you wanted him to . What you saying to the dog : " bite full and hard in order to get the leather rag/ tug. " You are not saying , you bit well and you beat me. As opposed to : You don't bite well then I will beat you . Keep yourself out og it.. This has nothing to do with you , unless you make it about you ...


by Hundmutter on 07 June 2019 - 20:06

Tone, re that photo : @ least if you are using a White, one with darker nose pigment like Jenna's is a better bet than the pink and mottled brown thing sported by my current canine bloke !! Wink Smile

{Just in case readers have missed the fact that I have a white dog, and start calling me a 'hater' again ...


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