Dog Turns On Owner - Page 2

ProudShep, I certainly was not implying that this cracker buy a dog, He gave that advice in his first post to buy within driving distance, I simply commented on that. I don't think this guy deserves a dog, 2 YEARS ??? what the he** ?? Poor dog... that's who I feel for !!!!

You guys, its obvious why this person posted this thread...again, they are looking for sympathy, and because no one is giving it, this person probably won't respond. When I was talking about how my new baby is out of control, I admitted it was MY OWN FAULT, I never once blamed the breeder, the vet, or whoever else I could, I stepped up and took responciblity, and I know most of you do the same, like EchoMeadows, (Who I am STILL very proud of!) Admitted about the "OOPS" puppies, that took courage, and that deserves recognition, KUDOS TO YOU MICHELLE!

Sorry to hear about your situation Derrick . Just because a dog is titled or trained to a certain level does not mean that it will work for you and with you or anyone else on that level though. Some dogs will need specific training with the new owner if they want to handle the dog at that level, that is not uncommon. Sometimes the chemistry is just not right and a dog may not work for you at all, though he work really well for the next person. That too is not uncommon. When that happens you need to accept that for what it is and decide what is best for your situation with such a dog, which usually means you are better off with the dog in someone elses hands - before something happens. In your website you address people to be cautious if they want dogs for protection and security, so I assume your initial inquiry was for such a dog as well. Many K9 suppliers assume a certain level of handling experience from their clientele. Many K9 handlers ask for 'kick-ass' dogs. Many private inquires are for the same. Unfortunately - because many handlers, pro and private, often get in over their heads with such requests. A dog for protection and security will bring a certain level of natural aggression, especially civil aggression with it. Often the request for hardness means that the dog has to have the willingness to stand up to the owner and the hard hand that this hardness is usually needed for, and all that often entails the real possibility for handler aggression when the dog has reached a point of 'enough is enough', or 'ha, I just noticed I am stronger than you'. If the topic of handler aggression was never specifically addressed, then you omitted a very important factor during the purchase process. Dogs like this will not be Lassy-types that just "know" when to get tough, and when to be the pussy cat for their owner. Dogs suitable for such jobs can be on the tough side and that includes that at some point in time they seek out weaknesses in their owners/handlers. Most trainers know that and wait to be challenged by their dog, then settle things to make sure boundries are clear from there on. Not setting these clear boundries is usually the beginning of serious trouble. If that was you in the pic on your website, you come with a weakness many protection/security prospects would very easily try to challenge. First of all, few of these dogs have been exposed to people in a wheelchair, let alone be handled by one. When they are confronted with it at such an intimate level some of these dogs may quickly seek the upper hand. That is just natural. Most working dogs need a certain level of physical strength to stay on top of. Being wheelchair bound is putting you at an immideate disadvantage in such a situation. This dog tried to challenge you with small things first. Ie your initial problems with obedience. This was never properly addressed and most of all settled. Things built up over time and the moment he saw a real opportunity he took advantage of it, turned on you, in order to show you who is boss. In his mind that is him. And he just settled that. All normal, if you know what you are dealing with. Could it have been avoided? Possibly. If the signals had been interpreted and addressed properly. But he was most likely the wrong type of dog for you to start with.

The issue here is not with good or bad importer, but choosing the right dog for your own personal situation and to be realistic about it. Be it because you have kids, are a certain age (a tough working line dog for a 15 year old or a 90 year old may not be a wise choice), or body type (ie 90lbs person wanting to take on a 150lbs tough dog may also not be a wise choice) or are challenged in some way, does not matter. There it the right type of dog out there for every person and situation. Proper communitcation of your actual needs, not your wishes or rather wishful thinking, ensures that you get the right dog for your specific situation. In case of this dogs temperament, there is little recourse if you asked for a security/protection prospect and the dog ended up being too strong for you. Many people overestimate their actual security needs - in most cases a large dog that alerts through its physical presence and by barking is plenty. Many people also overestimate what they can handle in terms of the dog itself. Re the hips on the other hand - the original x-rays the dog came with should show the dogs particulars right on them. If the dog had no tattoo or chip then the x-rays are worth nothing. You need something to match the ID of one to the other. That would have been the importers responsibility. But also yours as well as part of your homework before the purchase. Let me guess: czech dog? Been x-rayed there? Well, if that is the case file it under lessons learned. X-rays that do not come from a reliable source are also worth nothing. Is the importer responsible for the dogs hips? Tricky. In Germany at age one you can a-stamp and that is the end of things. If someone wants to purchase a dog from us for example before it is a-stamped then it is properly prescreened with all the dogs particulars on it and sold as is. That is pretty common practise. If the x-rays do not belong to the dog and that can be proven, then the importer is responsible, because it was his job to ensure all was in order before the dog left. Never mind where he got the dog from and what arrangement he had there. That is what you are basically left with. Doubtful that dog and x-rays do not match if the x-rays were done in Western Europe. If the dogs particulars are on the x-ray and you see changes now, keep in mind that of course the two x-rays will look different after nearly 3 years have passed. No vet can really tell if x-rays belong to the same dog or not just by comparing some x-rays. Often changes in hips are environmental, especially if they once prescreened ok. We don't know what you fed and how you have kept this dog. If he has been pulling your wheelchair a lot for example (no idea), then yes, that could cause changes in the joints. You did not a-stamp this dog, or OFA him, so we do know that this was not all that important to you til things started to go wrong. By then it was too late. We also do not know how you trained and handled him and what led to the challenge. Often people miss the signals that dogs are giving. They may have been clear for the dog, not for the owner. 2 years for the situation to escalate is not something you can or should hold the person responsible for that has not been with the dog for these 2 years, such as the seller. The situation escalated under your care, training and handling. Dogs are living beings that cannot be guaranteed to function perfectly all the time. They break down, get sick on occasion, and have their own agendas sometimes as well. Lucky when things work out splendidly. Very unfortunate for both owner and dog if they do not. I hope you did not get seriously hurt.

D.H. well said and I hope anyone readng this who is looking for a "protection" dog that does not fully understand them, get help. Because if you do not know, they sure do, and are just waiting to take over/put you in your place. They will do this, do not kid yourself. It is their law of survial.

Good points D.H. Just to expand on the theme of tough dominant dogs: I have known a number of people who BELIEVED that they could handle their dog when in fact his attitude said something different. This is a set up for a confrontation. Best Wishes, Jonah

Great input, D.H.

OK now I remember this from back in Oct. But the question remains unanswered. Where is this dog NOW?

To D.H. Agree with yout comments, all exept the fact that a GSD imported through an importer never comes with a Zuchtwert. If the GSD doesn't have an eligible Zuchtwert value within the limits of the breeding laws, why even title him? Why not purchase the GSD directly from the foreign breeder? And I do agree with your comments imported dogs from on Czech Rerpublic, Serbia etc. Next, an advice for anybody to whom the dog hopefully will be transferred: Problem with a dog turning onto the owner after two years was caused by the owner, not by the dog. It takes a lot of effort and patience, but it can be done, to almost eliminate handler aggression. Future owner must keep a daily diary on the dog for about two years following the transfer. Even with no handler aggression reoccuring, the diary should be kept up to date. All incidents of re-occuring handler aggression will be recorded in detail in the diary. Further more, every onset of handler aggression who the future owner correctly diverts must be recorded. Body language of the dog and quick assessment of the surroundings will give the future owner a split second clue on the expected immediate handler aggrssion. The goal is to go as long as possible without any incident of handler aggression. Once a dog has gone past two to three years without another incident, you will feel a little bit more relaxed...........but please never relax fully! One incident and you are back to where you started!

What exatly is meant in this instance by "dog turns on owner"? Did it snap at him? Lunge? Jump and knock him down? Was this a constant thing or a one time occurance? Was it provoked in some way? I would be hesitant to label any dog as handler aggressive without knowing the details.