Good news? SV soon to be splitted! - Page 8

Sue:As for trying to convince us the reason your dogs are poorly constructed (I refuse to call them ugly because in my opinion no dog is ever ugly) is because you believe all should still resemble Horand, sorry but I'm long past falling for b***sh**.

Christopher: Poorly constructed? Poorly constructed in what way? What physical feat is a GSD capable of that a Malinois is not?

Von Stephanitz was a great CEO. He had vision and he was a consumate politician. I'm sure dog people in those days were just as quarrelsome as they are now. I'm sure there were vested interests, for example, the white shepherd aficionados probably tried to get their color in the standard; the long hair enthusiasts succeeded for awhile. He had to balance the interests of the show or trophy dog people versus the real shepherds, etc.

Raiser does not seem to be as good politically as Max. What happens in big companies with people like Helmut is they leave and start their own start-up. That's how the free market works. No problem.

The SV is not ready for change because right now, the product is selling and members of The Enterprise are making money. Look at the booming economies of China and India. There's Russia, etc . More markets for German exports. The SV believes that the black/brown saddle dog is part of the brand identity of the product. Go anywhere in the world and people know from the standardized appearance of the packaging that they  are looking at a GSD. The majority of buyers have very low performance expectations anyway. What they need from a shepherd is like what someone that only drives their car 55 mph on good freeways needs. What the GSD represents to most buyers in the global economy is a classy German product much like a Mercedes and very, very few people actually take their Merc racing. There's an AMG performance division within DaimlerBenz, and there's a working line performance division for the minority within the SV.

So what's the problem? The problem could be, as in most companies is the trade off between short term profitability and long term sustainability. The difference is we are dealing with nature and genetics, not with machine made objects. You don't have to look very far for what the future could hold for the SV shepherd.......just look across the pond at the AKC show shepherd.

ziegenfarm - I thought your post was great, and I agree :)

~Cate

cate, i thought i had read all the previous posts before i posted........but i missed yours.  stupid me.  yes, at least we are on the same page now.

everyone else, i think perhaps you are misunderstanding what dr raiser has suggested.  this crossbreeding would not be appropriate for all dogs, nor is it something that would need to be done repeatedly.  a few selected dogs could be bred in this manner and then carefully used to reintroduce certain traits to the breed.  i think some of you are invisioning some kind of ugly cur cross between w gr showlines and the malinois.  if his proposal is carried out correctly, we could see some very favorable improvements in as little as 3 or 4 generations.

how many threads have been posted on this board alone about show dogs that have retained working ability; working  dogs that will go V in confirmation???  i think most everyone is interested in a "whole" dog regardless of what your preferred discipline is.  structure and function.  don't be too quick to criticize.  at least take some time to think about the possibilities.

pjp

Madness, sheer madness.

Christopher Smith, as I said before if you like Mals so much why do you need to come onto the GSD site and have us listen to your diatrarb. When I said I dont believe any dog is ugly, I meant any dog of any breed because I love dogs, all types of dogs, even mongrels, I just dont have a desire to own ANY OTHER type of dog.

Also as I said, I have no problem with you prey drive, manwork fanatics, I believe in Live and Let live. However it is exactly that philosophy that makes my blood boil when I have to listen to such fanatics come on here to praise the Malinois over the Shepherd, even to the point of wanting to TAMPER with the breeding. 

Puputz talked a lot of sense, read what he/she had to say, I would echo his/her words. As for your final two questions to me quote:-  " So you mean to tell me that no matter how screwed up the GSD becomes you would never change a thing? If it was found out that some lethal gene was in all GSDs, and the only way to get rid of it would be to outcross, would you rather see the breed die?

1. I dont have screwed up GSD's, but  reckon it wouldnt be long before we all did if you lot got your way and if you cant see this then it is you who talks b***sh** .  Imagine the damage some idiots could do by mating intensly high prey drive Mal to slightly fearful GSD, the results are frightening.

 2. Thoughtful, Careful breeding prevents total screw ups (of the magnitude you are presumably talking about) and if I ever got a screw up I would not perpetuate the problem by breeding from it, i.e. end of problem. As for the lethal gene suddenly appearing in all GSD's, do you know anything about breeding and genetics at all? For you to even ask such a ridiculous question I think not. !  Furthermore if you start crossing a GSD with any other breed then in my opinion that would be when the breed die's. Therefore I will turn that question on its head and say ARE YOU PREPARED TO SEE THE BREED DIE?  With the evidence so far presented I guess your answer to that is YES,.

Regards

Sue B

 PS - Christopher Smith, you need to read posts more carefully, nowhere did I ever say a Mal was poorly constructed, a Mal is a Mal and should be constructed according to its standard, which is exactly my point, the GSD standard is NOT the same as the Mal therefore a GSD which looks like a Mal would be (in my opinion) of poor construction but never would it be ugly.

Please keep up,.

Regards

Sue.

Let''s go back to the time of decision making around 1900. In those days the new "breed"  "German"shepherd dog looked liked an ugly crossbreed ( statement: eyewitness Otto Rahm late President and founder Swiss GSD club) . It was not a real established breed. Such a dog was also Horand Grafrath, he was in most respect s a  "Thuringer"but from real Thuringers, though they were indefatigable workers, it was also stated that when they were kept in kennels at home they were realy wild and unmanageable! The Wurtenbergers were more outgoing and relaxed. The GSD was a cross of both worlds and more influences. The GSD is not a Thuringer. We do not want a hyperactive, unmanageable dog! Please study history and original sources again. Von Stephanitz is often abused in quotations. His struggle to maintain this breed as a working dog - and this breed is different from a Malinois- is to maintain the GSD as a helper and friend of the human race in a broad field of tasks as a serving animal. We remember this breed of WW1 as the seeing eyes for the blind, the rescuedog, the Meldehund, Sanitatshund, its enormous achievements up to the present days in searching for mines, drugs, Fährtenhund and of course as a reliable companion in thousands of homes. So please do not abuse the statements and goals of the Ritmeister. And study his time and put  his statements in the right context please!  The real GSD acts "like a gentleman" and is not a dog to be afraid of. A highly gifted, intelligent, reliable animal to serve...... sound in spirit and body based on the foundations of the herding dogs and their mental and fysical qualities. We do not need fanatics and ego's. We need persons which respect and love the breed and can maintain its qualities.  Do we realy think Helmut Raiser is such a person?

"If you could own a GSD that looked like a VA but acted like a Mal then I bet you would grab it with both hands. As for me I would refuse it because apart from not wanting to go back to looking like Horand I dont want Mal traits in my GSD's. thanks."

Sue you are wrong there. There are allot of V dogs I would love to own but not many VA frogs.  No frogs wasn't a typo. Sorry I'm not into cookie cutter dogs. The part about a GSD acting like a Malinois...no no no, you really got that blundered. I like my GSD'd the way they are. I'm not into Mals, don't think they are the end all or ever want to own one. I'd be somewhat against breeding Mal's into the GSD's but I'm a little more open to it than you are, I can tell. I think we still have some GSD's that can get us back on track without the Mal's help. Again like I said a year ago, I don't think Raiser was being literal. I think he ws trying to make a point and get it accross to some thickheaded people, who need shock value to wake up from their dilusions of grandure. If not for the working line breeders the GSD would be lost already!

As far as carrying on Max's vision, that's almost laughable. The VA dogs of today look and work like nothing of yesterday. What has held true? My dogs may not be able to heard sheep but I don't know, I am just guessing. I have no sheep to try with. Would be fun t give it a go. Other than that, I'm fairly confident the pup I have now would be suitable for any other job you can throw at him. He's as stable as they come, trainable and friendly up close.  He may not be VA quality but working dog people know what he is when they see him.