What would you change? - Page 3

True, most martial arts instructors do charge at least a nominal fee for lessons, though I have known very few who can even make a living from it, most do it for their love of the sport and because teaching a wide variety of students ultimately makes them better instructors. How do you expect any sport to grow if you do not welcome newcomers whether they are paying you or not? If you choose not to charge for your time that is your decision. I am not saying that you don't have every right to not want to work with any given dog or handler for whatever reason. That is also your choice. But, once again I think one needs to examine their own motives. Whether a helper or trainer is any good is an issue that needs to be evaluated as a seperate issue from money.

"I think when they start critique training methods a lot of the guys and gals who are at the top would say "go to hell " ill train w/ a small group that isnt affilated w/ USA. how can some one show up to Wallace Payne's Club and tell him he cant teach the forced retrieve, or tell T. Floyd or Gary they use too much e-collar. If it got to that point i think they would not train w. a club." (wscott) The USA constititution requires that as part of a club's bylaws, the club will promote humane training methods for the working dog. (Article V, a.i) Now, here's the question - does 'promote' equal exclusive use? I would also guess there are alot of variances on what trainers call humane (think of THAT thread...). I also think that because in a local club you will have an infinite range of degress of 'hardness' in the dogs, what may be inhumane for a soft dog may be easily tolerated by a hard one. E collars are banned in Germany, but I would guess there are people who still use them for training. So, I doubt there would be much chance for practical regulation of training practices by USA. I think at best USA would put forth a trainer's/helper's code of ethics, and leave it up to the members to report violations and file charges. I think that this should cover 'humane training' as well as professional conduct on club days. I would love to see some kind of public summary about clubs and the results they get. It'd be interesting to see how many clubs have only one helper, how many have 2, and how many have more. How many clubs have over 30 dogs? How many only have 5 members? etc.

I dont think Anyone is talking about disrupting a helper's personal training "methods" as long as they are humane. Forced retrieves, tracking etc. don't have to be inhumane! The fact that some of the helpers out there are practicing abusive techniques should bother everyone!!!! I know of dogs who have died from some of these "techniques". One owner did not report his dog's death because of the friendship he has with the helpers and is still training at that club. The club memebers will never report it and other incidents, such as using a 2x4 to bash the head and nose of a dog that will not out, Leaving it bleeding and still hanging on...or pinch collars around the middle of a male dog so that his penis gets pinched when he won't out... Because these club memebers will loose their club and training opportunities. In my opinion, a good trainer, one that is worth something and knows dogs, does not have 2x4's and shovels to bash dogs into obedience, in his bag of training equipment. Good trainers don't need to resort to that kind of thing because they know how to train and how a dog thinks. So what's the solution? Something has to be done, because if the outside world finds out there will be no more schutzhund. Period. I think USA should make generalised training rules. (maybe they already have one, but needs revision?) Rules that will give the basic outline as to what is acceptable and what is not. That would probably, at the very least, take the abuse "underground" and not on club day for all to have to watch. The proper list of rules would give plenty of personal "technique" leeway, yet spell out what is NOT ACCEPTABLE. This could all be spelled out at quarterly Helper seminars where helpers and helper trainers could get new and useful ideas from each other to bring all to a higher more ethical level of schutzhund training. JMHO Debby

Name these dogs who have died or you're a liar. Name the trainers that killed them or you're a liar. This is crap. Debbie you and others seek self importance by sensationalizing things like this. Share this secret information with us. If it is somone who is no longer in the sport it won't hurt them, if it is someone still in the sport they need to be exposed.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want, and yell liar liar all you want. It sadly does not change the facts. OH yeah, I'd just make it up so that peole like you can think better of me???? lol uh.. ok...Whatever. Nope I am not naming the club, trainer or owner(s). IF the owner(s) do/does not want to persue it then I am not either. Besides this particular "trainer" and club have STRONG ties to the upper management of USCA and are very well known. How far do you think I would get in complaining to a management that is a very close friend? That's just how life is right now. THat's why there needs to be a change. It really makes no difference to me if you believe it or not. Debby

I rest my case. The truth talks and bullshit walks...take a hike.

Rest in peace Spooky... if you can

This thread is SUPPOSED to be about things you would change....

When someone says we have people killing dogs in our sport then they should be reported. Debby claims to know of numerous occasions. Quote, "I know of dogs who have died from some of these "techniques"." Starting bullshit rumors like this is what's bad for the sport. This clown has probably never titled a dog in her life. These are the idiots that are bad for the sport. Any abuse should be reported and anyone willing to start this kind of crap should be exposed.

Don't let the sand cloud your eyes too much spooky.