Stud dog production in the US??? - Page 2

I saw Ernst, he visited our club - I loved the dog, my TD loved the dog - I talked to his handler at length about a breeding - I talked to some friends in Europe about his production and what I could expect with the linebreedings with my females...Europeans have a totally different attitude than Americans I would not take the risk so passed on the breeding... Yes, Ugo was here - but where?? Texas??? That is the other problem for those of us who WILL use an outside stud dog - often the dog is just NOT accessible - I sent horses off to breed, and about half the time I was happy wiht the mare care and half the time I was not, I am almost afraid to ship off a female... I remember seeing ads that Lewis Malatesta was here, and many show line dogs have shown up after heavy use in Europe to garner some more fees here - I think the show line breeders will go outside their kennels more readily than working line people though.. There *are* some nice males here now - and yes, the new owners want to sell you a bred female or a puppy - not breed your female - even one with credentials and proven to produce. It is all about money with too many... And stud fees are ludicrious for some dogs - in Europe they are 350 to 400 Euro pretty much....even the good males! And we have people who want $1000 - 1200 - 1500 for working line males - average ones with decent pedigrees...

Ugo is in TX...I believe in Hutto, TX. I think someone had a litter from him not too long ago as well. Jon Gjerpe has or had frozen semen from Ufo Burenswald available through Canine BioTech. Ultro is/was in the New York state area. I believe one other U litter Burenswald sibling (a bitch) was here in the States as well...but she'd be a bit too old for breeding now at 10yrs old. There are also some nice Ugo sons in TX as well.

You're right Kougar. Sometimes location can be a problem and the shipping can make you paranoid. The US is bigger than Germany and some of the people are more serious with less inferiority complexes so they can be more apt to use outside studs. Stud fees can get outrageous but it works several works. Stud fee for Ellute Mohnwiese in Germany is around 400EURO. I think Olex Valsory was somewhere around the 500-600EURO range. Bring any one of those dogs to the country, first the person buying him well have shelled out a whopping $25K+ for the male so that feel the need to charge this much for stud fees. Personally my limit is $1,000 but if I have a nice stud dog with the same qualities at a nicer stud fee, I would get with the less costly stud fee. Let me stick to the subject here without swaying off too much on how people just want to go with the big names dogs who have not produced much but it does coincide with the problem we have here in the US. Kougar I'd be curious to get a private email if you don't mind on this thinking you have on Ernst and Europeans, etc. I'm not sure were you were getting @ on that so want to hear that view. Back to what I am saying, some breeders need to give more "up and coming" studs who are not podium dogs the opportunity to still be producers. Even some of the best producers (i.e. Troll, Yoschy, Greif) were not 1st place winners. But some of us look at the #1 thru #10 spots for the most recent big trials as I determining factor for the next stud prospect. Bad bad bad idea. But I won't go on that tangent.

Ugo passed last year I think. Van Meerhoot (Dunn) had him right? I know they mentioned he passed and they used frozen or fresh on that recent litter he sired with the Juturna bitch

Kougar what female were you considering with Ernst and I'll check it out and see if I can think like you. Just curious...

Ugo brother Ultro in US ,Friend own hem

one was a Pike daughter, Schh3, KKL2,'a' normal, OFA Good 4 - 4.. SG Arthus vom Lünsholz 4 - 4.. Erle vom Buckower Feld 3 - 3.. in V Karlo vom Peko Haus 5,5,5 - 5...in V Greif zum Lahntal 5 - 5.. SG Aischa vom Schloß Landestrost 5 - 5.. SG Basko vom Flughafenrand 5 - 5... Blanka vom Körbelbach no previous pups from female, so no hip production to factor in... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ second was my bitch bred 2,5-5 on Lord - OFA Good, producer of 2 OFA good dogs and 3 eyeballed to be "fine" at prelim age; no line breeding, but she has Uran Kirschental...2 pups in Sch, 1 SAR, 1 SAR-now State Police K9 dual purpose - produced very serious progeny

So the close linebreeding on Pike was the warrant for concern? Heard that a million times. Interestingly I know a few folks in Europe doing 2-2 and 2-3 on Pike. Maybe they had a change of mind. LOL Other than that, if I were looking at the 3rd generation and back stuff you posted above I'd be saying hmmm..... wonder what those will be like. Interestingly to say the least. I was a week away from taking a bitch to Ernst and what truly happen I will have no clue but I received several conflicting stories. Also his stud fee was around $1,000 - $1,500 (think USA members got the discount of $1,000 at least I was told). Add that with gas prices these days and stud fees can easily have you getting a 2nd mortgage on the house. (Hah!!!) Wonder what the "old generation super breeders" (aka know it alls) think about the US dogs and their production and keeping up with that dog progeny progress. I can think of a lot of dogs in or from Europe but I'm finding myself kind of scratching my head for statistical information on stud dogs here. I can think of some current studs that seem to be producing well. But that may very well start a board war. LOL

There are plenty of good producing dogs here in the US. If the stud fees are too high don't breed simple to me. When you get a excellent proven producer and charge 450.00 let me know I will be first in line. I may be out of whack but I thought if you had a stud dog it was your choice to breed them or not. the ownder of the female breed to a good dog should get from 1,000 to 2,000 per pup average here in the US some how the 1,000 stud fee seems quite reasonable. People in Belgium the size of Wisconsin do not have the expense that we have here. Dogs coming to breed at my kennel require a eight hour drive to Atlanta but gas is cheap as well, not to mention the care of the female and feeding etc for a week or two depending upon when she is breed. The sire gets the blame for any litter bad or good but the female is fifty to sixty percent of any litter.

I don't think the price factor should ever come into consideration when looking for the right dog to breed your female with... If you are a breeder, you have a moral obligation to breed the best possible dogs that you can - if you're not committed to doing smart breedings, then you should take up another hobby! I think that a stud dog owner can charge $10,000 for a breeding to their dog if they want to - if it's a really great dog there will be people who will breed to it... I think $1,500 is a very reasonable price to pay to breed to a dog that is really a top producer... and I'm nott alking about the "flavor of the month", or the dog that was on the podium at the Nationals but hasn't produced sh*t for progeny. The bottom line is, this thread started out by someone asking if there was a "Fero" or a "Mink" here in the States now... I think if you would look at dogs like "Zidane haus Sevens", "Eick Berger Hochburg", and a few other great dogs that are in the States now - these same dogs would get an INSANE number of breedings if they were still in Europe, and the puppies would primarily go into qualified *working* homes... so, now that a dog like Zidane is here in the States, he will be bred to by people who really don't have the right reasons for using him in their breeding programs, and the chances of his puppies actually doing anything notable is slim to none... I think he is a great dog, but sadly enough he will probably never have the impact on the breed that he could've if left in Europe. I commend anyone who recognizes a dogs true potential and forks out the cash for the dog to bring him into the States - but the $$$ should never be a factor in it, because normally it's not a great investment... It should be to enhance a breeders own genetics and to have the ability to have an impact on the breeding programs of the individual breeders who really are committed to the integrity of the breed as a working dog. I also think that the question that was asked is that of opinion- even Mink and Fero produced some seriously inept working dogs with major temperament and health flaws, the truly good dogs came from the *RIGHT* combination... I strongly recommend to all the breeders out there that are looking to sworm to the next big thing, consider what you have in your kennel and what you would LIKE to have in your kennel - and then do research to determine what steps will be necessary to achieve your goals... but you have to know what your goals are first - not just saying "I want to improve the breed"... So what I'm trying to get at is this, think outside of the box a little bit, do a LOT of research and breed your female with the male that is genetically capable of helping you get one step closer to that mystical GSD that you have a picture painted of in your head when you think about your *dream dog*. Don't think that breeding to a dog that you perceive as your dream dog is going to produce a dream dog... it just takes more than breeding to the type of dog that you like to get what you really are trying to produce. Sorry for rambling on... David Kiewel www.kiewelworkingdogs.com www.vomhauskiewel.com