What do we miss about the older bloodlines? - Page 9

I have never understood the "out of control" = powerful analogy.
To me out of control is out of control... period.

And I also don't understand why so many people trash new training methods. THANK GOD we have evolved. THANK GOD, we've got operant and classical conditioning, relationship building, engagement etc.

It makes for much less conflict.

I've seen the old training methods and personally, I'd rather leave them in the past. Doesn't mean I won't employ a prong or e collar. In the past, we used yank and crank and downright beating the dog.

Today, we can actually teach the dog to turn off the pressure slowly and without pain. I also think that we don't teach dogs soon enough how to turn pressure off.

I've demonized people using prongs on pups, or e collars on pups. IF done right, it's much less stressful for the pup than literally passing out on a flat collar. You can combine everything and make it a positive thing.

None of that says anything about the dog. Training is training and Dog is dog. Just because you use positive methods, or NEPOPO or whatever else, doesn't make the dog any less strong. One does not exclude the other.

So Susie, I KNOW electric doesn't affect genetics, so am I led to believe that the dogs with the higher points or podium positions( as you acknowledge it can affect in skilled hands) don't receive more breedings than the run of the mill dog that is trialed. Am I led to believe that many people don't breed to dogs they have never seen; (to realize if it's the dog or the training,) just because of the dogs podium place or position often achieved with use of electric? Have these things changed? If so then you are right, electric in sport doesn't affect breeding, but if it does I see a correlation. And I'm not anti electric, I'm just bringing to focus that the better dog cannot be assessed by podium placement THESE days because podium placements today are more the result of training than better dog. Sure all the dogs on podium have adequate quality, but points are result of extraordinary trainers not necessarily extraordinary dogs or compatible dogs to many females.

spot on Gustav, wish more people realized that

No, nothing changed - there are still stupid people breeding to placements instead of breeding to genetics.
I tend to forget about those "breeders" - not my target group.

I just tried to say that the use of e-collar ( or not ) may make the difference between a winner and a placement, but doesn´t change the dog - and everybody who knows about the requirements for trials like the BSP knows that there is no real difference between most of the dogs.

Better handler - use of e-collar - better team - and so on...doesn´t change the dog.

Dogs able to participate at the BSP ( some of them more than once ) already proofed their working abilities.

I was a BSP spectator in the early 80s, comparing these dogs with today I often ask myself :

Would the dogs of that time be able to participate on a high level today or have they been "different" ?
Is it different genetics or is it different training? Maybe both?

Comparing the IPO / SchH standard of the eighties to the standard of today none of these dogs would be able to qualify for the BSP...

the whole obedience a "no-go", lack of precision, lack of speed, lack of accuracy,
within bitework lack of alertness, lack of speed, lack of grip, the obedience parts way behind,
within tracking lack of accuracy...

Back to topic: What do we miss about the older bloodlines?

This is difficult topic for most, because they judge by sight, and most have not seen older dogs. Second, they judge by today's standards, which were not sought in olden days. So, the built in bias or lack of hands on knowledge make it difficult.
So let's just say older bloodlines are fun to read about, and NOW is king!👏

I like what Gustav is trying to say. It makes a lot of sense. In theory, a lesser dog trained with an ecollar, can podium/win over a stronger dog that is trained without one. That is very possible and can definitely be true. I’m with Susie though in the fact that the dogs being showcased at the highest levels are quite similar and any of them would probably be great breeding choices depending on the female. There are for sure great dogs sitting in people’s back yards, but there’s nothing we can do about that because there is no way of finding out about most of those dogs without luck.

I personally don’t think older dogs were any better or worse than today’s top dogs. I think the dogs that people claim they miss…are still around today. I truly do think today’s dogs have all the things people claim to value in those old dogs. Maybe it’s covered up by better training, and maybe we just value different things in dogs now. The majority of dogs that the general public actually has access to…is the same as it was decades ago. The regular public didn’t have amazing, national/world level dogs then, and they don’t today. You get the special dog only when you know where to find that dog…they weren’t a dime a dozen back then, they aren’t today.

Yes, BV those type dogs are still here today. I continue to have them, but they won't be bred to in general. I just think that a show dog should work, and a work dog should be structurally correct.( I understand the boat has passed, but VA dogs that produce BSP dogs( for over 15 years Bernd v Lierberg had the MOST progeny in BSP) is a superior dog. But again I know that boat has passed, but the principle is extremely important to me in viewing the breed. Btw, I know some of wl are structurally correct.

As soon as at least most people would care about working ability in show lines, and proper conformation in working lines, the boat would return.

In case I´d be able to make the decisions for "our breed", rules would be way more strict ( for all dogs, be it work wise, or be it conformation wise ).

As long as so called "show line breeders" worldwide are able to breed good looking coach potatoes, not even able to achieve an IPO title / breed survey, or "working line breeders" are able to breed dogs with one/no testicles, missing teeth, a lot of them totally oversized, nothing will change ( not even talking about health tests, or DNA...)
These people don´t care about the breed standard, but are floating the International market.

The worst for me is, that my country, instead of working against all of this ( wouldn´t be difficult - simply no acknowledgement of foreign dogs not fulfilling the German standard, no participation on major German events ) is loudly thinking about LOWERING the standard, because our German breeders feel disadvantaged ( more training, more money involved, a lot of dogs not suitable for breeding ).

Right now it´s still possible to get a good working showline, and it´s still possible to get a good looking working line, there still are responsible breeders - but most buyers don´t care, they just want to save cash - so why should the breeders care ?

Because I think breeders shoulder more responsibility than buyers....again that's just me. I guess when we accept that some breed right, but most do not ( in reference to show caring about working and working caring about health /structure) It's difficult for me to comprehend the superiority of today for the breed........but I'm not brightest light on tree. 

"Because I think breeders shoulder more responsibility than buyers..."
Yes, at least they should.

Not brightest light on tree?
No, but surrounded by breeders who don´t even need to follow the simpliest rules for decades now.