What do we miss about the older bloodlines? - Page 2

Exactly, Koots. Dogs don't have the ability to foresee something like that. I was only trying to explain to Mith what Gustav said, because I could tell from the example he gave that he didn't understand it.

If a dog were attacked by another dog, and seriously injured, that might have long-term effects, because that sort of fear would be needed by a wild animal to survive. So, it's something a dog might have inherited from its wolf ancestors.

Maybe weak nerves? Bad temperament? .................

You can´t compare dogs with humans 1:1 - dogs don´t "think" like we are able to do ( or at least should be able to do ). Dogs act and react out of drives, temperament, and experience, whereas humans are able to suppress their drives and calculate; we are able to think about what happened, and why.

There are inherited and learned fears in humans, too, ( airplanes, spiders, fire ), but "rational" thinking is able to let most of these fears vanish.

Just think about your elevator, and think about how seldom they really stuck, now think about the likelihood it will happen to you ever again... Experience versus intelligence - what will win in your case?

After all, you are able to "impress" or "frighten" every dog, but the better dogs are way more difficult to impress... ( same with humans...).

There are plenty of high drive/high aggression dogs out there today. They’re just few and far in between just like they were back then. These dogs need strong/capable handlers and there aren’t that many of those around either. Many of these dogs also need to be nurtured to become that way, if they’re raised differently, they don’t necessarily become that way. I always consider the fact that we only list one dog in a litter or out of certain breedings that is this “special dog” and wonder what happened to the littermates or the other siblings. If the dogs were that crazy, regular people wouldn’t be able to handle them, and not all of those dogs were going to working homes just as today not all dogs go to working homes.

I have a few dogs I work regularly who are out of “older” bloodlines. Very nice, very balanced dogs. Plenty of aggression and plenty of prey. The dogs themselves can be taken in either direction with the training and one of them was a sort of accidental test subject. Much of the initial work was done by a helper who worked dogs mainly through defense. The dog took the pressure and came through it very well. Dog looked fantastic in the protection, the more you pushed the aggression, the more the dog pushed back. At the same time, dog lost control, dog was in the fight and the handler couldn’t control it. A few months off, and a different approach to the training, the dog was still aggressive, still brought the fight, but was much more clear and easier to control. Handler wants to trial, wants to title, can’t just have a dog that wants to kill the helper no matter what.

Today it’s probably harder to find that blood because the dogs through training aren’t achieving much at the higher levels and not being bred to. They’re out there, but just not as known to everyone. Wouldn’t be the worst thing for the breed if breeders had frozen they could use to bring back a little of that type of dog, but the key after that is to place them into capable hands that could show off that dog and make sure that the line does get bred for future generations.

A lot of what lasts with dogs has more to do with the owner/handler with them than the dogs own fear. If a dog gets stuck in an elevator and doesn't much like it, but it is on its own or the handler stays neutral / calm, the dog will probably be fine once its in the elevator next time; even if it is a little reluctant to get in, that first 'next time'.
If the handler remembers that the dog panicked a bit last trip and tenses up in preparation for the dog to react badly on the subsequent trip, that is probably what the dog will do.

I know Gustav and I do differ in this point, but I can remember dogs and dogclubs till the 1970s (my first trial in 1979 ? - a long time ago ).
A LOT of dogs were not able to achieve a SchH rating, a LOT of dogs were tested by police, but washed out. The bitework performance at the Siegershow was a joke...( no out at all, very often no "hold" ).
A lot of dogs who passed SchH trials would fail today ( lack of drive, lack of temperament, lack of training ??? ). A lot of dogs were affected by HD and spondilosis ( visibly, not able to work at young age any more, really BAD ).
And my grandpa, who handled GSDs since the thirties, was amazed about the development of the dogs in the seventies.

There are no statistics, it´s about feelings only, but for me the breed improved. Maybe we, the handlers, improved, too...

Then the breed is progressing fine and in good hands!....No need for my insights!...see y'all next year on this subject as the norm for the breed continues to improve. I'll be looking for some WGSL dogs in LE to increase in numbers as there are tens of thousands of them AND the breed is improving....gotta be some.......😺.....should be a lot just by virtue of numbers AND the breed improving.

Guess, you need to differ between Europe, European exports, and American bred dogs...

The breed as a whole is devided because of people who don´t care about working ability in working dogs.
Interestingly this hasn´t much to do with any "lines", but much more with testing and selecting.
In some hands the breed is progressing, in a lot of hands not...

After breeding 3 generations of untested sable working dogs some sable pets remain...

But all of this is not new, it´s old news, beginning after WW 2, the bitework "test" on the 70s/80s German Siegershows was a joke against today - and today I am still able to wonder about some ratings.

The stories Susie tells are the type that I tend to believe. I’ve also heard the same from a very big German trainer that lives in the United States now. American perception of what goes on in Germany is very skewed IMO and I’m not sure why because there are plenty of people like Susie that tell us how it is without trying to hide anything. The truth is, the only people I hear that claim how much worse the dogs are over all and how much “easier” it is to title are those that could only achieve something pre 2000 and haven’t done much since.

Today, we see ALL the dogs and ALL the training. Someone who has been training in IPO for a few months will proudly post videos of their dogs online and think it’s the greatest work ever even when those dogs don’t ever end up titling. Older dogs…we only have the videos and memories of the best. Comparing the best of the best from back then, to the beginners or even average dogs from today isn’t fair, but that’s what many of those great dogs get compared to.

In my experience…I can get most WGSL to bark and bite, I think today the standards of IPO have increased so much in regards to control that the dogs that are left a bit too out of control to make sure they still bite and show some drive don’t pass, while the dogs that are controlled don’t have the drive to get through that. “Real” work requires less control and less strict obedience and so the dogs are still allowed to stay crazy and do what is asked of them. In trial…just like back in the day…a helper knows how far he can pressure most dogs. No one in the sport is expecting the same level of pressure at a club level that you see at a national level. I’ve also seen plenty of videos from national and world level events decades ago where helpers weren’t putting anywhere near the pressure you see in today’s drives.

I still have a hard time believing that dogs back then were that different from what we have now. Training is better, expectations are higher, and there is just a higher overall level of dog behavior which has changed what kinds of behaviors we want to see out on the field. I don’t think those types of dogs are gone, they’re just not able to compete at the highest levels because of what is scored and how it’s scored.

Nothing .. the dogs are better.  Many more good dogs than good people to own and train them .. and I am not just talking about phoney baloney IPO dogs.  The dogs are available from the crazy T Rex types some of the cops want to the intelligent and thinking types used for herding and service dogs for the blind.  

Old style dog is something of the past , all u have now is Black and Tan golden retrievers and that goes for 99% of today's k9s too