Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 18

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by astrovan2487 on 09 November 2018 - 14:11

I can agree with what apple is saying about people breeding primarily for top points sport dogs. By no means am I saying all or even a majority of the top level sport breeders are doing this but there are some and it is a disservice to the breed.

We have all heard of people who have dogs that live their entire lives in crate or kennel runs and only get out maybe a few times a day to train to a very particular set of rules. Dogs that can't settle, aren't clear headed, and have "stupid drive" lots of drive but no sense. These are the kinds of dogs I'm thinking about. Good for points and thats it. How does anyone actually get to know these dogs if they never do anything but practice on fields and compete on trial fields and never really do anything outside of that?

In my opinion a good GSD should be capable of doing just about any job, except a couch potato or the like. It's not like it's a rare breed, perhaps we need to get more picky? Maybe I'm asking too much

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 14:11

 

Apple: Duke, Joan, Gustav and Prager could show you plenty of pedigrees that are planned for top sport dogs that would not cut it as police dogs. I don't have the knowledge base.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't have the knowledge of pedigrees like Duke and Gustav have. They have access for testing many dogs for years and can see similarities in pedigrees for the type dogs in front of them. My experience is not as broadbased by a long shot.
I do know how selection affects the direction within a kennel, and same applies to the breed.


by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 15:11

Here is an example of a pup from 12 weeks old, to 12 months old, started in typical sport type training, he is obviously showing civil tendency. Watch how he ignores the equipment the more he matures. He is line bred on my dog Body Jipo- me, a very civil dog and he is the sire of the dog I described testing with zero foundation work completely green and the sire of the female who saved her owner from the intruder with bite to stomach through a tshirt....it's genetics, baby!

https://youtu.be/PS9Np9fgSsQ

by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 15:11

Duke
Yeah, mixes of Dutch-mali, GSD Mali, whatever. Police don't care about papers, pedigree, etc, but that the dog is suitable....and is there not a price difference? A lot better to go test and bring back 10 candidates for the price of 5 purebred dogs. I honestly don't get my weekly issue of "Cop Dog Weekly", so I'll defer to you on the current trend of K9s. My issue is with the people on here that listen to internet trainers on sport dogs.


To everyone else,

Show me. Show me these pedigrees of top sport only producers. Show me some pedigrees of dogs that are tailored only for top end sport. Don't continue to say that you can produce many, and not offer any.

I don't know what clubs or people you've trained with, but I'm calling BS on you. How many of you have actually done helper work for national and world level sport dogs? I mean, where are these pedigrees? There's so many out there, this should be easy! The problem is that you don't know what you're talking about. You listen to internet BS spewed by people marketing their crap. If you think that high end sport dogs are lacking, please show me the case. Are there dogs that wouldn't be suitable for LE in high end sport? Sure, but there are probably some that because of training, and an excellent handler, have exceeded their abilities in sport. With a crap handler they wouldnt be club level. I don't know who you have trained with, but I know the type of dog I like, people I've trained with like, and the type of dogs at high levels.

And what is it that these breeders are breeding for? What is it you are claiming they are adding and leaving out, when breeding? I am 99.9% sure I know what you are going to say, but I want to read your words. I want to make sure I understand you.

by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 15:11

Joan

You don't have to be an expert in police K9 to post some pedigrees of litters bred specifically for top sport. You are a breeder, no? And from all the threads on here, you state, you don't breed "sport dogs", no?

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 16:11

Vito: You don't have to be an expert in police K9 to post some pedigrees of litters bred specifically for top sport. You are a breeder, no? And from all the threads on here, you state, you don't breed "sport dogs", no?


Me: I don't believe I ever stated, " I don't breed sport dogs". There are sport dogs in the pedigrees of my dogs....if there were not, I would have to resort to the American show line dogs in order to avoid any dogs with completion accomplishments. Again, it's all about SELECTION within litters and from those dogs.
I have a couple dogs that have become competition dogs, and from the same litters, there are dogs that are ppd. It is all about selection.... the people who wanted sport dogs, trained for sport with the pups I selected for them.
I do not focus on breeding for sport competition, but that does not mean their are not occational pups suitable for that venue.

I do not understand what you're getting at about posting pedigrees. All you need to do is look up WUSV and click on the dogs' pedigrees. You can see for yourself. Then look at the litters from them on working dogs eu.
That endeavor does not take expertise of any sort.


by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 16:11

Here, Vito, I'll post this again, because I addressed your issue here and you must have missed this post from the previous page......


Vito, it's all about selection within the litter. A pedigree as you described that is behind both sport and LE dogs is easily explained with selection.

A pup in the litter that is selected for sport because of desired traits for sport competition, and that goes on to be a top sport dog will be bred.
Another pup in the same litter, turns out of have the exceptional traits needed for top LE k9.....that dog will likely never be bred.
Therefore, the traits of the sport competition dog are moved forward in the breed, while the exceptional pup with traits for top LE dog hit a dead end!

That is how traits which are sought for Sport, dominates the genetics in the breed!!

by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 16:11

Joan

That's not what was said. The claim was that there were so many breeders out there breeding specifically for top end sport.
Prager

by Prager on 09 November 2018 - 16:11

@ Apple : first do not mix imprinting and default. I would suggest that you learn better about what I call "Default" . This is a real thing and not a matter of someone's "belief" and anybody who trained dog in protection with sleeve will know that such dogs prefer to bite equipment that point on.

  Next, I assure dogs most definitely have the "intellectual sophistication to distinguish a low  profile suit/tactical suit from clothing"  people make often this mistake where they think that suit somehow makes the dog civil because they are fooling dog into believing that dog who was all life trained to bite equipment will nor recognize an equipment. I also assure you that you can have the best possible concealed hidden sleeve on the world and dog will know it better then you. That is why it is important to teach the dog to target the man and not equipment while hoping that equipment trained dogs genetics will override this contradictory training. 

Also I assure you that great number of bites are on perps which are 1/2 nacked( no shirt).  

 

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 16:11

Vito: Joan
That's not what was said. The claim was that there were so many breeders out there breeding specifically for top end sport.


The sport breeders are breeding for sport.
What is your point?
Read my post again, directly above your last one.
The podium dogs producing both LE suitable pups and podium dogs....the LE dogs are dead end as far as their traits being passed on when they are not usually bred. The podium dogs get hundreds of breedings because of sales pitch using famous dog.
Therefore, the genetics lean towards sport not LE in subsequent generations.

I think I need to do a handstand or hold my mouth a different way while I type in order to get you to understand what I'm saying, lol.



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