Ae German Shepherds self aware ? - Page 4

no doubt about importance to understand/read the dogs but i believe people tend to "humanize" dogs too much.
all stories above for sure interesting and enjoyable to read but they demonstrate just a dog's ability to selflearning
about events and objects, with established during first experience the reaction to recurrence of same event.
parts, which describes affection, perhaps just a norms of social behavior among canines and other mammals.

b.t.w. Koots asked question: "Does a dog born with a deformity know it's different than any 'normal' dog?"
which is interesting in retrospect of "dog's self awareness"

I do have problems with the term " self awareness ".
Does it mean: " I KNOW I am an individuum?

The dogs I raised at home didn't care about mirrors ( although some puppies did for one or two days when I brought them home, but lost interest pretty soon ). The adult dogs raised in kennels had problems with mirrors at first, too, but lost interest within some days, too...
Do dogs loose interest in mirrors because they realize it's themselves, or do they simply realize it's not interesting?

TV?
It's about triggers - my very prey driven dogs even watched soccer or tennis, the dogs triggered by dogs ( be it out of friendliness, be it out of dog aggression ) reacted to dogs on TV, hunters reacted to deer, and so on -
and some of them reacted to nothing....

I liked all of them, and as a dog lover/owner for decades I know each dog does have it's own personality -
to the same time I know for a dog there is no past ( although dogs do dream !!!), and there is no future.

Self awareness? I guess yes, but not like humans, just like dogs...

Valk...
I think a dogs ability for self learning is in itself a great thing. That is how human learn too.
None of us have invented anything new...we just build on top of our own learning. Maybe very few exceptions like Einstein’s dreamed of relativity theory come spontaneously. But even his subconsciousness was built upon previous knowledge. Sure, we can rationalize, a dog is limited in that aspect. He doesnt have to build machines to do his work for him like we anatomically weak humans do. Nor have things...or shelter and warmth. He has fur, 4 legs, endless stamina, and teeth, and needs nothing else.

Social behavior is not just robotic, there is thought and emotion behind it....lead by hormones and genetics sure...just like humans.

I believe a dog knows of its deformities and limitations, but it doesnt matter to him as he does not have an ego per se. I do however, think there are some dogs that perceive their beauty. Some show ring naturals feel that energy and blossom.
But basically only humans, I would say, have the dubious gift of being able to judge things as good or bad...mostly to keep their own ego bolstered.

Nothing is worse to a human than the unwanted perception of death to his ego.

Val
I often write ... the dog world is Ying and Yang . To truly understand a dog we must accept that dogs are very much like us and at the same time in existence , they are very different than us. The two opposites happen to be true at the same time just as Ying and Yang are opposite yet they exist together in the same place and time.
I have seen as much damage done to dogs by ascribing totally human behavior onto them and I have seen just as much damage by ascribing that they are not like us - thinking , feeling , emotional animals.
Koots that is a super question....
I believe that they do .. if a dog loses a leg or does not have a leg, they most certainly know that they cannot run , function , as the other dogs . And I believe that otherwise normal dogs also recognize this about another compromised animal. At one time I have had 12 GS in pack . The youngest GS as a pup had two genetic heart defects. All the dogs recognized his ailment for they treated him very very different , they always cut him slack and watched over him . Their behavior indicted this .. they let him eat out of a common bucket at will , they let him drink where and when he wanted too , never ever pushing him out of the way. They never ever rough housed in playing with him or pushed him around. this was not so with the other pack members who always jockeyed for higher privileges or position. He knew he could not breathe , run , like the other dogs- he was given 2 years to live.. but he lived to over 6 years of age . I could withhold to generalize but I think , not always , but often enough takes place with other dogs. That is an opinion about other dogs , not a proven fact.

     Susie ... interesting outlook , for the record my current GS watches tv shows without animals in the airing program and he watche tv shows I get bored with .. So I get more entertainment watching him , watching those shows  :-) .      A lthough with my 4K TV and with the surround sound system .. I wonder if he actually thinks this is real to life ??   Who knows ..

Mindhunt - forgot to say your post was EXCELLENT ** , incredibly spot on and correct  !

Apple .. OMG  I don't know how that Nat Geo  got passed me. antway glad you wrote about it- I have to check that out  :-) 

Susie...
My experience:
When my dogs see other dogs on tv, yes it is stimulating...they bark and wag tails.
But, when I put on a video of themselves on the big screen, they instantly look away and don’t watch and seem very uncomfortable. One dog even always yowled as if in mental pain begging me to stop it, and looked away, if I put a video of him on the tv. But loved watching other dogs.
Which makes me conclude, yes, they know themselves even in video...
and just by being bored by their reflection is also true...which they are...because to themselves they are boring, they have no need to see themselves, but they still recongnise it is themselves.
Nor in my mind is it only the simple prey drive of moving pictures.

Jesse, please try it again ( video ) without sound...
Will there still be a difference
( watching themselves/other dogs )?
I guess it's the sound, but that's a guess only ( I never videotaped my own dogs ). I don't think they are able to recognise themselves on TV.

Good point Susie-I thought the same thing!

I though that my dog recognized his own panting and barking and that was making him uncomfortable.
And I played it again. without sound, and same thing happened. When I said “look!” he went into avoidance and left the room. Same effect with different videos of himself. Now, I’ve only had this with that one dog. Maybe it was an anomaly...or maybe others have had similar experience?

Humanizing a dog is a big disservice to the dog and usually happens when a dog is used as an emotional crutch for whatever reason. I find the older I’m getting the more I tend to try to become more doglike myself. Much to the amusement of my family sometimes. Lol

Jesse, don't call it " doglike", just call it instincts ...😀
For me the main difference between humans and dogs - although we, the humans, didn't loose our instincts, our learned behavior/learned morality/abstract thinking ability ( some individuals more, some less - based on the sum of education and IQ ) makes us able to decide against our instincts - free will ( as far as possible ) against instinctive dog behavior ( only channelled by education).

Susie, to be self aware and this would be including dogs, it means they are conscious of there own inner state of being that is separate from others. It is this state that also is what is called emotional intelligence and also permits us or them to understand how they are perceived by others. It is this awareness that enables a desire to act or promote some sort of change. Darwin believed self awareness presents itself on a scale in varying degrees among the species.

For example, without the capacity for self awareness, a mother would not feel compelled to feed her offspring as she would not percieve her own hunger as something other beings can feel. In other words, it is impossible to feel anything without having first having had the feeling experience for one's self.

Susie 👍
My meaning was a person can try to become “doglike” and to me this includes Instincts.

Free-will is another huge topic....
And many many books and even world religions have been based on that one.
Do dogs have free-will? Or, are they driven only by instinct?

Also, upon very deep examination...do adult humans exercise their free will often or wait for a trigger? Almost all people will right away say YES I live by my free will.

But do they really? How many people stay or feel trapped in their circumstances.
Yes, it is their free will to stay trapped in their circumstances. So in that sense, I guess they do exercise their free will.

My first impulse is to say that dogs do not act on “free-will”. There will always be a trigger for their action. But I still have to think a bit about that one!