Ae German Shepherds self aware ? - Page 2

Nothing to be defensive about, beetree. I really am curious how one ever had a discussion before mindbendinggoogle arrived. So, I know I'm not as smart as you, nor as well educated, but I consider Centurian a friend, and know he will not talk down to me as do you, and I could have enjoyed a discussion with him...even tho, as you pointed out, the topic is way over my head.
But I'm sure you will enlighten everyone with what you learned from your Google searches.

perhaps they do but i'm not sure about significance of dog's self awareness in retrospect other than philosophical study.
i more like when dog has abilities to consciously make decisions, to independently solve arised issues, to work assigned
task in absence of handler, etc. rather than dogs who would do (or wouldn't) stare at themselves in mirror :)

Valk , figuratively speaking ... on the light side of a topic.. yes , we prefer dogs not to stare themselves in the mirror to see how pretty they are and daydream : -). However the ability to be self aware is a higher cognitive , mental function. And if dogs do have the capacity to be self aware in certain situations... then there is more to the meaning of 'understanding the mind of the dog ' . And that also leads into the dogs awareness to how we understand how the dogs think and feel . It has become proven that a dog taught , if possible through positive and motivation works most often better and more reliable than with teaching that requires force and coercion [ as a generality and not all but for most dogs that is to say]. in that respect , if we better understand our dogs , then we can better relate to them and train them .. perhaps ??
But... Although there is anecdotal evidence that they are self aware , as of this time , I don't know any scientific proof that this is the case. So .. other people's experience ? Anyone else care to share their experience ?
Gee , there are so many knowledgeable people on these threads , so many experienced people .. people that are supposed to understand Gs .. Anybody else have any insight or opinion about this, one way or the other ?...

We as humans can’t even prove we are self aware. There is no test.
“I think therefore I am”? A dog thinks too but does not doubt his existence or know of mortality ...as far as we know.
A dogs likes or dislikes are not always trained or learned. 
That alone probably accounts for a certain self awareness of “what I like” and is not just instinct.
Which is why we train, or use certain tricks in our training bag, according to what ‘speaks’ to that particular dog.

edited

Think about this in relation to self-awareness.....Does a dog born with a deformity know it's different than any 'normal' dog? I don't think so. Knowing there is a difference is a sign of being self-aware, IMO, so in this perspective then dogs are not self-aware, but this may not be any kind of definition of the term.

Think about the example of a pair of dog buddies, where one is blind and the other sighted one acts as his guide. That shows empathy from one dog towards the other and this motivates the desire to help the blind dog. This too is a real life example of self awareness.

I think it's really impossible to determine if a dog is self-aware as they can't talk.

My first shepherd would watch TV with me, and one night, when we were watching a show about dogs, and a border collie ran off screen after some sheep, she followed it with her eyes, then got up and went looking to see where it had gone. She even went to the door of my apartment, and listened for it out in the hallway!

When the show was over, and the credits began to roll, she stood up, had a stretch, then strolled into the kitchen for a drink of water! How like a human, when their favourite show is over!

Do her actions indicate self-awareness? They certainly indicate intelligence, and reasoning/problem solving ability, but as for self-awareness, I don't really think so.

The gorillas and chimps that were taught to use sign language were able to show self-awareness. When Koko the gorilla was asked if she was a human or a gorilla, she signed 'fine animal gorilla'!

Agree with Sunsilver's post. As for the mirror test, my current old dear sits in front of my floor length mirror and gazes calmly at herself in it. She does not give any indication that she 'just can't see it'; nor does she turn her head away from her reflection. But she does not bark at it, either - and she is dog-reactive. So, without the capacity for words, who 'knows' what is going on in her head ?

This is my third housedog to show ZERO interest in what happens on a TV screen.

Currently there is no consensus scientifically that dogs are or are not self aware. I found some of the posts interesting.
Jess , yes ... we can prove that we are are aware of ourselves and as I wrote studies have been done with many other animal . One example I gave are elephants. they have been to shown that they are aware of themselves.

The other comment. Dogs do speak a language ... their language , not our language. Not to mention that : not all communication has to be verbal . Aside from sounds , e.g whimpers every movement a dog makes is a form of communication . That said : it is what they do , their behavior, that will either validate self awareness or the lack of it. Behaving speaks volumes. BTW , to be a great decoy or helper , this is imperative to master. Many people that I come across in the dog world still think " the dog is a simple animal '. I see in all avenues , in life , in sport , that is exactly how they relate to the dog , as a stupid simple animal. Not to be to academic... but dogs do have inductive reasoning , they problem solve, they have primary emotions like anger and fear yet they sometimes show secondary emotions such as jealousy. When I was taught to train dogs my teacher didn't allow us to say a word to a dog in the process of training . We had to learn to talk , dog talk.

When my dogs look in the mirror I know they recognize that they are looking at 'themselves'. Because some of them always barked at other dogs , even other GS . Yet they recognized and they knew that the image in the reflection was them . For an animal to do that , a dog , I found that fascinating !

My thoughts about reacting to reflections...if a dog or wolf goes to a water source for a drink, he sees his reflection. Should he react by barking and acting stupid he goes thirsty and if the behavior is repeated enough times he dies of thirst. Process of elimination dictates dogs don't react to their own relection.

My experience per dogs communicating non verbally on the level of elephants....first I'll relate experience I with a teenage female African elephant named Churchill....she loved to 'trade' high value items that she could not get except from a person,for example an ice cream cone. Just like some people, she had a sweet tooth. One day I walk past Churchill to my horses in the stalls, and I feel a gentle tugging on my left sleeve just below my shoulder. I turned and it was the big huge elephant reaching out getting my attention. I spoke to her asking what's up, and she reached down to the by at her feet, purposely tapping around with the end of her trunk, till she selected some choice strabnds of the hay, then lifted it up and presented it to me. I put my empty hand out and she placed the hay in my hand, then reach towards my ice cream, pausing with her trunk, sniffing at the sweet treat. So naturally, I handed the cone to her. She gently took the prise and opening her gigantic mouth, pushed the ice cream cone deep inside so's not t loose a drop. Then she seemed to laugh as she moved her big ears back and forth and slowly closed her beautiful, expressive eyes for a moment.

Now, elephants are without doubt one of the most intelligent animals we share this planet with. Dogs can compare, especially dogs living close with humans.
I had a dog that would trade, as Churchill would trade. Not a gsd, but a Shiba Inu. When all the dogs were lying around chewing on cow hoofs, Echo the Shiba, sometimes would get up with cow hoof in mouth, approach one of the terriers who was chewing n one, and set his down in front of the other dog....take his front feet and push the hoof over to the other dog all the while making happy grumbly sounds....like he was saying, ' look at this really good hoof, don't you want it? Here take this.'

Almost without fail no matter who the other dog was, they could not resist and would take Echo's offering , where upon the Shiba would reach over a take the hoof that dog had been chewing.
This behavior was not limited to trading with other dogs, as he would trade a hoof with me for a piece of my sandwich or whatever I was eating....I never did understand what they saw in those cow hoofs...guess it's an acquired taste thing....

 

I'll come back later after chores and tell what I've observed in puppies regarding developing self awareness.