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by darylehret on 15 March 2012 - 16:03
That's YOUR definition, Jim, that's all, for whatever it's worth. Capt. Max v Stephanitz was kennel blind by your exact words. You can keep nitpicking what I'm doing til you're blue in the face, and it doesn't make you anymore different than those miserable women you fit in so well with. Ha ha. You have what I call kennel fixation, my friend.The topic is about "kennel blindness" which is breeding untitled, un registered dogs, with out health tests because the owner (not breeder) thinks they are worthy of breeding for some reason. That my friend is kennel blindness, IMO.
Now, I've seriously had enough of the "Daryl's critics" thread for now.
by oregontnt2007 on 15 March 2012 - 16:03
At slam...
we dont breed dogs. would be nice, but we dont breed dogs that are not dna tested, titled, has no OFA ratings as well as learning the bloodline.
Charlie is spayed.
If by chance our pups do not pass the test we put them thru, we will spay them as well. Not like others we wont destroy this breed.
We were 6 grand into our tess from birth until she was just 10 days prior to age 3, and had to be put down. We feel that if the owners
would have tested for certain things we would have never gone thru the heartache of a finacial, emotional and the loss of the dog.
I will have to say again we might have nice bloodlines but pretty is as pretty does. We refuse to become back yard breeders, I promise you that.
Oh, forgot we also test with ATTS they have to pass that as well.
I really dont feel we have kennel blindness since we never have bred since we are only to find people with good bloodlines but that is about it.
would that be fair to say?
if joe blow wants to breed & not test that is up to him as long as it doesnt affect us.
I just dont want dishonest breeders say there dogs are great when they produce bad bites, they should know better after 180 pupppies, IMO that is kennel blindness
we dont breed dogs. would be nice, but we dont breed dogs that are not dna tested, titled, has no OFA ratings as well as learning the bloodline.
Charlie is spayed.
If by chance our pups do not pass the test we put them thru, we will spay them as well. Not like others we wont destroy this breed.
We were 6 grand into our tess from birth until she was just 10 days prior to age 3, and had to be put down. We feel that if the owners
would have tested for certain things we would have never gone thru the heartache of a finacial, emotional and the loss of the dog.
I will have to say again we might have nice bloodlines but pretty is as pretty does. We refuse to become back yard breeders, I promise you that.
Oh, forgot we also test with ATTS they have to pass that as well.
I really dont feel we have kennel blindness since we never have bred since we are only to find people with good bloodlines but that is about it.
would that be fair to say?
if joe blow wants to breed & not test that is up to him as long as it doesnt affect us.
I just dont want dishonest breeders say there dogs are great when they produce bad bites, they should know better after 180 pupppies, IMO that is kennel blindness
by hexe on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
darylehret responses in bold:
"Lose buyers? I don't recall ever selling any of my puppies to an internet junkie, and I'd be grateful that I never DO. You don't threaten me, not in any way I can see."
You misread that paragraph, Daryl--let's look at it again: There's the kennel blindness of believing that I know enough, and can be impartial enough, to accurately assess not just how well my dog meets the breed standard, but also whether the dog is anatomically sound of mind and body, and if it performs the work of the breed to the appropriate level for the breed...and therefore I don't need any input from anyone save for those who feel the same way as I do. Anyone who questions or disagrees with my beliefs is, of course, immediately suspect as to their motives, is probably either another sheep, or is threatened by me and is afraid they'll lose buyers to me.
Meaning he/she who is laboring under the above-described form of kennel blindness dismisses anyone who does not agree with them as being foolish, or afraid. Or, to be more blunt so my admittedly complex sentence structure is clearer: You, Daryl, believe you know enough and are impartial enough to assess the quality of your dogs and therefore breed without the benefit of the added knowledge titling them and having them certified by OFA/PennHIP/OVC/SV/NKSB/etc. as sound in hips and elbows would provide you. Further, you, Daryl, are dismissive of anyone who opines that your breeding program is substandard because of the lack of titles and certifications, and it is *those* people who are threatened by YOU and the outstanding, talented, healthy dogs you are producing, and it is *those* people who are afraid they are going to lose buyers TO you.
As I don't breed dogs, and I don't sell dogs, I wouldn't imagine I would pose any threat to you, in any way either of us can see. Unless, of course, one considers the threat that speaking the truth creates...in that respect, I do pose a risk to you, because I will never support the breeding of animals that are not documented to be free of the most basic of health concerns in the breed.
"Go ahead and breed to AKC standard, FCI standard, SV standard, Czech, Slovak, Netherlands or whatever. Not ONE of those registries will guarantee you shit, and anyone who disagrees is kidding themselves about who's really blind here. I know I've had my fair share of crap dogs from most of them. Remember I can pick who I sell to just as easy as you can pick who you buy from."
Actually, those registries WILL guarantee you one single thing, the only thing that they were created to guarantee: they are certifying that the dog for which they are issuing that registration certificate IS a purebred specimen of the breed it is purported to be, and that the parentage of that dog is accurate based upon the breeder's documentation of such. In the past, all of this rested entirely upon the honesty and ethics of the breeders involved in the chain, but now, with the availability of DNA testing, these registries provide a markedly high degree of assurance that the dog they are issuing a registration certificate for is indeed purebred and of the lineage claimed by the breeder. If there is reason to suspect something has been falsified, and DNA testing confirms such, while these registries themselves can't refund a buyer's monies, they will revoke the animal's registration and the registration privileges of the individual who falsified the registration application.
If you have such disdain for the registration, though, why are you even bothering to register your latest litter? Why not just let them stand on the 'quality' of the breeding alone?
"This thread is completely and ridiculously derailed, with everyone so worried about what I'm doing."
Don't be disingenuous, Daryl. You KNEW when you started this thread that your own current breeding practices were going to come into the discussion, since what you're doing of late is one of the most classic displays of kennel blindness one could imagine. In fact, I submit that you initiated this 'discussion on kennel blindness' at this very moment PRECISELY because you were whelping a second litter from your just-now 2 year old bitch, and were placing an advertisement on this board for those pups and knew you were going to get called out on the lack of titles and health certifications. You knew exactly what you were doing in opening this topic--I believe it was what our previous president and his advisors would have referred to as a 'preemptive strike'. So whining that you're being picked on and the mods should ban people and lock the thread is weak at best, and frankly despicable at it's core.
Frankly, the lack of titles isn't a deal breaker in my book, because yes, we do all know that titles can be 'bought'--I'd rather have a dog who's sire was a working SAR dog than one sired by a dog whose SchH titles were 'purchased' as evidenced by the dog's ignorance of any of the commands or exercises. It's the failure to verify health status, and the breeding of underage animals, and the in-breeding without sufficient evidence of what you'll be amplifying--as well as why--that I find troublesome, especially when you then offer these pups for sale to the public. If you were truly 'breeding for yourself', as you once mentioned, and were keeping all the pups resulting from these breedings, then have at it--but when you put these dogs out with other people, you now put the breed as a whole at risk, because dogs don't always stay with the person you sell or give them to. I see you're in Montana; I can't help but wonder how many dogs with your breeding behind them have--or will--end up in Steph's (KrazyboutK9s) GSD Rescue?
Jeff Oehlson has come to your defense in this discussion, and has apparently seen and worked your dogs, but I notice that Jeff--who I know has no love for any registry, and little use for SchH, and who does raise valid issues regarding each--DOES have the basic health certifications done on his dogs. What makes your dogs exempt from that basic process? Jeff has espoused the idea of bringing Malinois blood into the GSD to improve working ability as well as soundness, and while that may have merit to those ends, it is not in keeping with producing purebred dogs as the various registries in the world define such. I'm OK with crossbreeding for traits--sleddog breeders have been doing so for decades--but you can't call the result a purebred anything...and why would anyone want to call it that?
As for the other peanut gallery that's chiming in with misogynistic asides, well, with supporters such as this, you'd be better off having none at all, because they certainly don't make a case for you having a well-examined, carefully thought out breeding program in place. The level of their commentary suggests that they fall into the tow-chain collars and leads, 'don't look ma' dawg in da eyes' crowd...hardly the type that one would look to for a cogent examination of the pros and cons of inbreeding, genetics and the heritability of traits.
"Lose buyers? I don't recall ever selling any of my puppies to an internet junkie, and I'd be grateful that I never DO. You don't threaten me, not in any way I can see."
You misread that paragraph, Daryl--let's look at it again: There's the kennel blindness of believing that I know enough, and can be impartial enough, to accurately assess not just how well my dog meets the breed standard, but also whether the dog is anatomically sound of mind and body, and if it performs the work of the breed to the appropriate level for the breed...and therefore I don't need any input from anyone save for those who feel the same way as I do. Anyone who questions or disagrees with my beliefs is, of course, immediately suspect as to their motives, is probably either another sheep, or is threatened by me and is afraid they'll lose buyers to me.
Meaning he/she who is laboring under the above-described form of kennel blindness dismisses anyone who does not agree with them as being foolish, or afraid. Or, to be more blunt so my admittedly complex sentence structure is clearer: You, Daryl, believe you know enough and are impartial enough to assess the quality of your dogs and therefore breed without the benefit of the added knowledge titling them and having them certified by OFA/PennHIP/OVC/SV/NKSB/etc. as sound in hips and elbows would provide you. Further, you, Daryl, are dismissive of anyone who opines that your breeding program is substandard because of the lack of titles and certifications, and it is *those* people who are threatened by YOU and the outstanding, talented, healthy dogs you are producing, and it is *those* people who are afraid they are going to lose buyers TO you.
As I don't breed dogs, and I don't sell dogs, I wouldn't imagine I would pose any threat to you, in any way either of us can see. Unless, of course, one considers the threat that speaking the truth creates...in that respect, I do pose a risk to you, because I will never support the breeding of animals that are not documented to be free of the most basic of health concerns in the breed.
"Go ahead and breed to AKC standard, FCI standard, SV standard, Czech, Slovak, Netherlands or whatever. Not ONE of those registries will guarantee you shit, and anyone who disagrees is kidding themselves about who's really blind here. I know I've had my fair share of crap dogs from most of them. Remember I can pick who I sell to just as easy as you can pick who you buy from."
Actually, those registries WILL guarantee you one single thing, the only thing that they were created to guarantee: they are certifying that the dog for which they are issuing that registration certificate IS a purebred specimen of the breed it is purported to be, and that the parentage of that dog is accurate based upon the breeder's documentation of such. In the past, all of this rested entirely upon the honesty and ethics of the breeders involved in the chain, but now, with the availability of DNA testing, these registries provide a markedly high degree of assurance that the dog they are issuing a registration certificate for is indeed purebred and of the lineage claimed by the breeder. If there is reason to suspect something has been falsified, and DNA testing confirms such, while these registries themselves can't refund a buyer's monies, they will revoke the animal's registration and the registration privileges of the individual who falsified the registration application.
If you have such disdain for the registration, though, why are you even bothering to register your latest litter? Why not just let them stand on the 'quality' of the breeding alone?
"This thread is completely and ridiculously derailed, with everyone so worried about what I'm doing."
Don't be disingenuous, Daryl. You KNEW when you started this thread that your own current breeding practices were going to come into the discussion, since what you're doing of late is one of the most classic displays of kennel blindness one could imagine. In fact, I submit that you initiated this 'discussion on kennel blindness' at this very moment PRECISELY because you were whelping a second litter from your just-now 2 year old bitch, and were placing an advertisement on this board for those pups and knew you were going to get called out on the lack of titles and health certifications. You knew exactly what you were doing in opening this topic--I believe it was what our previous president and his advisors would have referred to as a 'preemptive strike'. So whining that you're being picked on and the mods should ban people and lock the thread is weak at best, and frankly despicable at it's core.
Frankly, the lack of titles isn't a deal breaker in my book, because yes, we do all know that titles can be 'bought'--I'd rather have a dog who's sire was a working SAR dog than one sired by a dog whose SchH titles were 'purchased' as evidenced by the dog's ignorance of any of the commands or exercises. It's the failure to verify health status, and the breeding of underage animals, and the in-breeding without sufficient evidence of what you'll be amplifying--as well as why--that I find troublesome, especially when you then offer these pups for sale to the public. If you were truly 'breeding for yourself', as you once mentioned, and were keeping all the pups resulting from these breedings, then have at it--but when you put these dogs out with other people, you now put the breed as a whole at risk, because dogs don't always stay with the person you sell or give them to. I see you're in Montana; I can't help but wonder how many dogs with your breeding behind them have--or will--end up in Steph's (KrazyboutK9s) GSD Rescue?
Jeff Oehlson has come to your defense in this discussion, and has apparently seen and worked your dogs, but I notice that Jeff--who I know has no love for any registry, and little use for SchH, and who does raise valid issues regarding each--DOES have the basic health certifications done on his dogs. What makes your dogs exempt from that basic process? Jeff has espoused the idea of bringing Malinois blood into the GSD to improve working ability as well as soundness, and while that may have merit to those ends, it is not in keeping with producing purebred dogs as the various registries in the world define such. I'm OK with crossbreeding for traits--sleddog breeders have been doing so for decades--but you can't call the result a purebred anything...and why would anyone want to call it that?
As for the other peanut gallery that's chiming in with misogynistic asides, well, with supporters such as this, you'd be better off having none at all, because they certainly don't make a case for you having a well-examined, carefully thought out breeding program in place. The level of their commentary suggests that they fall into the tow-chain collars and leads, 'don't look ma' dawg in da eyes' crowd...hardly the type that one would look to for a cogent examination of the pros and cons of inbreeding, genetics and the heritability of traits.
by Slamdunc on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
Daryl,
You have a lot of issues, especially with women. That was off topic, but a response to Daryl's post. On the bright side, I'm sure most of your puppy buyers do not frequent this site and are not concerned with your kennel blindness or more accurately your myopic vission of what a GSD should be or how to properly breed.
You have a lot of issues, especially with women. That was off topic, but a response to Daryl's post. On the bright side, I'm sure most of your puppy buyers do not frequent this site and are not concerned with your kennel blindness or more accurately your myopic vission of what a GSD should be or how to properly breed.
by darylehret on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
For what it's worth, I don't want anyone to get the notion I feel health clearances are unnecessary or unimportant. Some things are just idiotic to test for unless there's showing of some sort of symptoms. I DO test, generally where the highest indicated risks in MY BREEDING are to be found. Hutch and Nyx will certainly be certified at some near future point, just to satisfy my own curiousity. But it is MY PROGRAM, and I MAKE the call where improvements need to be met. I have great consideration for the health and welfare of my own animals and those of my clients, it is exceedingly important to me. I spent several thousand last year alone on veterinary care for injuries, vaccinations, testing and exams. A "little cash" for sure, in the expense department. Puppies are not for profitmaking, in my experience. I've had three litters now in the last three years. Meanwhile, some of my critics here, doing it for "the love of their breed, ego" or whatever, have had 2 or 3 litters on the ground all throughout the year. Considering all the Ehret pups out in the world, and none with any inherited health issues WHATSOEVER, I'd say you've got bigger worries than ME, regarding this german shepherd breed, it's the wolves in sheep's clothing !
by workingdogz on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
Just curious;
what happens when/if you get around to
'certifying' Nyx & Hutch, that they can't?
Plenty of dogs can APPEAR totally sound
that have bad hips/elbows.
Isn't that the very LEAST you could do before
you donned your rose colored glasses and
backed that young bitch up under your
male twice in the last year? Especially
if you are trying to sell to the public,
which you are.
Both with this current litter and
the previous as well -yes, you advertised
those pups on this site too-one was listed as
a 'herding prospect'.
It's not jealousy from anyone who is showing
displeasure with your kennel blindness-it's flat
out disgust and disbelief.
what happens when/if you get around to
'certifying' Nyx & Hutch, that they can't?
Plenty of dogs can APPEAR totally sound
that have bad hips/elbows.
Isn't that the very LEAST you could do before
you donned your rose colored glasses and
backed that young bitch up under your
male twice in the last year? Especially
if you are trying to sell to the public,
which you are.
Both with this current litter and
the previous as well -yes, you advertised
those pups on this site too-one was listed as
a 'herding prospect'.
It's not jealousy from anyone who is showing
displeasure with your kennel blindness-it's flat
out disgust and disbelief.
by hexe on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
"Hutch and Nyx will certainly be certified at some near future point, just to satisfy my own curiousity."
Interesting. And should you find that either of them IS dysplastic, or that both have transitional vertebrae syndrome and are at increased risk of developing (and producing) cauda equina, or are both found to be at risk of developing DM, what then, after no less than 23 puppies have been brought into the world from them?
THAT'S one of the biggest points of contention I see in your version of kennel blindness, Daryl--what about the people who have those offspring, and for whom this information will have come too late?
I am curious as to what you tell your clients when they ask about Hutch's and Nyx's hips--because even the most uninformed buyer has heard that GSDs have problems with 'those hips' or 'back ends'... Do you just tell them that you haven't seen any problems in either one, and their respective parents and grandparents and so forth were all normal? I suppose that would satisfy anyone who didn't really know anything about hip dysplasia and that it's possible to have a litter of pups where only one is found to have normal hips, and the rest are dysplastic to varying degrees...are your clients that poorly educated in the breed and the disorder?
I do agree with you that EVERYONE has some level of kennel blindness, especially if they're breeding dogs. It's unavoidable. But some versions are less damaging than others.
Interesting. And should you find that either of them IS dysplastic, or that both have transitional vertebrae syndrome and are at increased risk of developing (and producing) cauda equina, or are both found to be at risk of developing DM, what then, after no less than 23 puppies have been brought into the world from them?
THAT'S one of the biggest points of contention I see in your version of kennel blindness, Daryl--what about the people who have those offspring, and for whom this information will have come too late?
I am curious as to what you tell your clients when they ask about Hutch's and Nyx's hips--because even the most uninformed buyer has heard that GSDs have problems with 'those hips' or 'back ends'... Do you just tell them that you haven't seen any problems in either one, and their respective parents and grandparents and so forth were all normal? I suppose that would satisfy anyone who didn't really know anything about hip dysplasia and that it's possible to have a litter of pups where only one is found to have normal hips, and the rest are dysplastic to varying degrees...are your clients that poorly educated in the breed and the disorder?
I do agree with you that EVERYONE has some level of kennel blindness, especially if they're breeding dogs. It's unavoidable. But some versions are less damaging than others.
by darylehret on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
You make a lot of assumtions yourself.
by Slamdunc on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
Workingdogz and Hexe,
Well said! I also do not breed or sell dogs, so no competition or jealousy here. I just hate to see people breeding dogs with out doing the bare minimum to health test their dogs or even register them as purebred. If you do not even health test or register your dogs as a pure breed GSD you are doing everyone and the breed a disservice. It is the epitome of kennel blindness and back yard breeding. I would expect more from some one as intelligent as I beleive Daryl to be.
Well said! I also do not breed or sell dogs, so no competition or jealousy here. I just hate to see people breeding dogs with out doing the bare minimum to health test their dogs or even register them as purebred. If you do not even health test or register your dogs as a pure breed GSD you are doing everyone and the breed a disservice. It is the epitome of kennel blindness and back yard breeding. I would expect more from some one as intelligent as I beleive Daryl to be.
by Blitzen on 15 March 2012 - 17:03
Ditto, Slamdunc.
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